• 2011mvfsm pad 18dec

last modified December 18, 2012 by facilitfsm


3rd Meeting: Occupy the WSF

Tuesday 18th of December 2012, 19:00 GMT
Occupytalk.org > Assemblies & roundtables > OPEN SPACE
Draft invitation for this meeting 

Signs in the text chat during our mumble meetings:
WWWW or +1  = agree
MMMMM or -1   = disagree
****turn****        = ask for turn
+++++             = direct response
TTTTT               = technical point 

Les signes employés durant la réunion Mumble:
WWWW or +1  = Je suis d'accord
MMMMM or -1   = Je ne suis pas d'accord
****turn****        = Je demande la parole
+++++             = Je veux répondre directement (sur ce qui vient d'être dit)
TTTTT               = Point technique / Clarifications / Demande de traductions

1. Notes from previous meetings:

2. Summary of the meeting on 7 December and open proposals to be discussed in assemblies and in the next meeting 18th of december: 
1. a caravan around tunis during the forum to see the most radical assemblies
2. a camp in Tunis managed by horizontal movements (15M, occupy, via22, T'harrek .......)
3. 3 assemblies (they have been registered but the contents are to be decided) 
proposal politica internacional 15M, Madrid
First assembly: Concrete expieriences and alternatives built in different spaces and assemblies in 15M/Occupy/Social horizontal and assembleary movements
Second assembly: retaking commons (earth, water, services, .....)
Third assembly: strategies of impowerment of social struggles facinh oppression and repression of the system
4. Name of the camp/activities: moveFSMTunis, 2011move2FSM, wsftunis, 2011M2WSF, Newmov2WSF, OccupyWSF,TomaFSM, WSFtaketomaFSM,
5. Local horizontal activities all over the world connected with activities in the extended forum 
6. Confirmation list we are using: 
7. Translation issue in the forum:  (may be translator brigades can help)
should we try to innovate an online simultaneous interpretation system for the future meetings (the idea is at an experimental level: interpreters - via babels- join in the mumble meeting and mute their mics so they can hear  and interpret via skype. So they establish conference call simultaneously with participants speaking relevant language. 
8. How we involve the assemblies all over the world in the preparing for Tunis process?
  • How do we make sure that we keep our initiative open to new proposals during the coming months?
  • How do we make sure there will be always room for constructive criticism, for example on how to relate to other movements, NGOs, unions, etc?
  • Can we come to an agreement on a very short statement indicating the purpose of our initiative (maybe not now, but within the next couple of weeks?) and what would be the main elements of such a statement?
9. How we could promote local participation for people who cannot travel to Tunis?
Extended forum is a modality explained here http://www.fsm2013.org/en/node/113  - 
Local groups not going to Tunis can announce local activities and also tele-encounter activities , with tunis groups or with other local groups.  Also they can "tele- participate" in activities held in tunis (inasmuch those activities are enlarged on internet by their organizers) 
First local activities announced are seen here :http://www.fsm2013.org/fr/node/1432  the concept of combined participation is explained here ; http://www.fsm2013.org/en/node/456
A collaborative scheme for supporting extended participation is being prepared here : http://openfsm.net/projects/tunex-en ( translation in progress from :http://openfsm.net/projects/tunex-fr
10. How will we reach out and build links with more Tunisian local activists in order to start building up towards wSF as well as ogranising logistical and other matters in Tunis?5.meeting in Mumbles (weekly?what day?change o keep one fixed day)
11. simple blog with calls for meetings/minutes/relevant articles/practical info/reporting?

Translation of the Agenda: 

1. Que se passe t'il à propos de nos assemblées et du travail sur le forum social à Tunis ?
2. Blogs, lists et les outils que nous utlisons.
Listes de confirmation que nous utilisons
3. Noms des réseaux qui préparent le travail à Tunis.
moveFSMTunis, 2011move2FSM, wsftunis, 2011M2WSF, Newmov2WSF, OccupyWSF,TomaFSM, WSFtaketomaFSM,T'harrek, GlobalSpringWSF (+1)
4. Peux t'on trouver un accord sur un petit texte qui explique le pourquoi de notre initiative ?
5. Activitées prévues à Tunis: assemblées, caravane, marche des migrands, open sapce...
6. Forum étendu et participation locale en dehors de Tunis.
7. Les traductions: comment s'y prendre ?
8. Comment appliquer d'autres personnes how to involve other people, groups, movements? 
9. Aspect financier à propos des activités et les transports et autres infrastructures.

0. Introduction on methodology of the meeting 

1. Division of tasks: 
facilitation: Jasper 
stack taking:  Ternura and Mrs 
minute taking: mariangela, Orsan
translations in French: Rami

People participating in the meeting introducing each other: 

Analuz: española en Túnez
Carminda:Montreal-Quebec, Canada  VIA22 (via22global@gmail.com)
Daniel from Barcelona (dsf_cm@yahoo.es), Spain 15M
Fausto: italian in Tunis, T'harrek. faustogiu@gmail.com http://tlaxcala-int.org/biographie.asp?ref_aut=2&lg_pp=fr
Jasper: Netherlands, occupy 
Karina: Montreal-Quebec, Canada 
MRS: Sarh from UK, Worthing 
Nachoutebo: Aragona, Spain 
Netdruide: from France 
mariangela: politica internacional 15M, Madrid, Spain 
Occupier Kaylynn: occupy des moines, iowa, usa
Olyaz: from Armenia involved in the forum 
Orsan: turkish, lives in NL - occupy amsterdam 
Ounais: Tunisian actists, living in France
Predrag, Zagreb,Croatia, local activist groups Citizens' Action. 
Piran: Iran living in germany Berlin anticapitalist activities 
Rami: Tunis, T'harrek, WSF methodology 
Ternura: 15M spain, international network of Occupy 
Umang Kumar, Boston, MA, USA - from Occupy Boston and Occupy local universities
Pierre : from France involved in the WSF participated in the last meeting in Tunis 
VIca: Occupy london 
Pirate 101: Jim north east england, Occupy list 
Tutini: Occupy london
John occupy london, occupy basilea in switzerland 
ViCA, Occupy London
Jim, North East England, Occupy Mvt


  • Discussion about how do we do the translation : We use English with translation in French 
  • Introduction about methodology (minutes and Explanation of the protocol and signs we use in the chat
  • Introducing eachother  (see line 132)

Agenda 18th december and discusssion: 

1. what's happening in our assemblies about the forum and  information from Tunis 
Que se passe t'il à propos de nos assemblées et du travail sur le forum social à Tunis?

mariangela: politica internacional is informing all the assemblies about the forum and the work of our network  Nous informons toutes les assemblées sur le forum et le travail de notre réseau

Rami: in Tunis there was an international meeting and there are some divisions.  Many people see hierarchy in the organisation of the WSF and don't want to keep working the way it is going right now,
International Council wants to have the indignados in the forum 
There are several groups who dont want to stay in the organization of the WSF. These groups prefere to work with people who want to change the organizations. The "organizers" pretend that there are 15 organizations in the Steering Committee, but this is lie, they are only 5 people who run everything and want to conytrol everything
there is a fight right now. Some people say they could help us 
French:  Il  y a une bagarre en ce moment contre les bureaucrates corrompus qui  contrôlent le comité de pilotage. On ne sait pas comment ça va tourner

Ounais: we didnt get to the point of a real change. We have to organize activities ouside the forum , show that everyone can participate, the principle of the Indignados
French:le milieu politique tunisien n'a pas changé. Il faut sortir et faire des activités à l'extérieur en montrant que chacun peut participer, le principe des Indignés

Jasper: about what happened yesterday in Tunis and the 
French: j'ai vu aux infos les manifestations à Sidi Bouzid hier

Mariangela: She agree that people are active in tunis and they want to see new movement coming to tunis. so we need to go to tunis.

Fausto: there are lots of conflicts in Tunisia after what happened and there are revolts everyweek. I am afraid that the WSF will be outside this conflicts as it happened in Keny
fr: Il y a beaucoup de conflits en Tunisie après tout ce qui est arrivé et il y a des révoltes chaque semaine. J'ai peur que le FSM reste en dehors de tous ces conflits comme c'est arrivé au Kénia.

Piran: there is a revolutionary situation in all area. We have to connect with this. The WSF from the beginning is a very important social event. there is always a struggle between old political culture and new political culture which is horizontal. The other culture is topdown. We couldnt leave these spaces in their hand. These spaces are ours. We have to interfere. 
French: Le Forum social mondial depuis le début est dans une crise interne  toujours due à leurs méthologies de travail. Ca a toujours été le cas  depuis que je suis dedans.
C'est  une bataille entre la vieille culture politique et la nouvelle et  l'ancienne appartient au capitalisme. Et la nouvelle est à propos  d'horizontalité, de participation, pas de leaders pas de porte paroles,  etc.
Ces anciens veulent diriger tout à l'image de ce qu'ils sont. Mais la  situation actuelle est une crise dans le FSM et ils ne peuvent laisser  ça dans cette vieille culture. Il y a de nouveaux processus qui sont  apparus et qui nous appartiennent ceux de 2011. On ne doit pas laisser  ça dans les mains d'autres personnes. On ne doit pas reculer sur nos  positions. On ne doit pas laisser les autres virer qui que ce soit.  C'est NOTRE place. Merci

Fausto: yes but we in Tunis believe every day more and more that the people in constrol of the WSF belongs to the old culture too
French: oui, mais à Tunis, nous croyons de + en + que les gens qui contrôlent le FSM appartiennent à la vielle culture

Orsan: I know there are a problem in approching the organizers. I dont know if is possible to engage with this situation. We have just to do our activities in a positive way outside or inside. We could teach we could learn
French : je sais qu'il y a pb pour "approcher" les organisateurs. Je ne sais pas si on peut régler ça. Nous devons simplement faire nos activités de manière positive à l'extérieur ou à l'intérieur du FSM.  On peut enseigner, on peut apprendre

ounais: ask who is organizing the SF in Tunis and if the people know about the process

Rami: has been organized by old people from the Ben Ali era: Fathi Dbek, UGTT, who participated for 10 years in the WSF. The comunication is very bad, the work is very bad, and the people from the so called Forum for economical and social righst. 
French: le FSM est préparé par des vieux chevaux de l'époque Ben Ali: Fathi Dbek, UGTT, qui squatte depuis 10 ans le FSM, Taoufik Ben Abdallah, un autre vieux cheval, et les gens du Forum Tunisien pour les droits économiques et sociaux.

Dani: question do you mean we have to fight the block organizing??
French: question: devons-nous participer au Forum ou le combattre ? Je ne suis pas là pour combattre le Forum mais pour combattre le système capitaliste

Basstress: happy to hear from Tunis and to have this discussion. If we are hear we want horizontality, direct democracy. We are criticizing the process and we have to work for open space. Information: there are people proposing the dissolution of the international council 
people agree that we dont want to see hioerarch appearing in WSf and we dont want to see that and i guess we believe in open spave and horizontal working. there are people aspecting a parallel space. 

Fausto: Carminda and everybody, U can read this article by Gus massiah from the International Council http://www.ritimo.org/article4568.html
The Future of the International Council of World Social Forum 

Mariangela: lets move on our proposals and we know that we will do what we want and how we wont. 

Rami it is not about try to get control of everything, expresses frustration (?) after occupy and the revolution, this WSF is very important because lots of people are accepting to go beyond their principles agaisnt money, we have to be ourselves whatever happens, they want the image of Occupy, they don't want "us" (the people) because they don't understand what is it about yet. The problem is that they don't care about the ppl, they just need the benefits of the chance of getting together. Lets all camp. I dont want to destroy the forum but we cannot stay with the odl left. It's a space and  has to change with no doubt. 
If WSF doesnt change people is not having the right information. People from real movements in Tunis could be left outside the forum. And iit is important to have them there or go to them. 

Marwen and Nori: I agree that we don’t have to loose our time fighting a structure like the forum that Is maintaining the statuts quo, instead we are interested in a forum where
o Promote networking movements basic social and strengthening to become larger and stronger by involving the interplay between global culture and local culture resulting in self-management, horizontality, direct democracy, popular struggles networked.
o Participate in the self-determination of social movements
o Another civil socity is possible ....
o Exit the Jurrasic park mode
o Living alternatives to capitalism instead of reversible
o Relevant critical collaboration trio Capitalism-state-civil society and emphasize alternatives
o Encounters between people who have projects at the base and make a max benefit people
o Open outlook on what is possible and to imagine and address the crisis of the imagination and the imagination
o Engaging the most disadvantaged and can marginaliséées by globalization
o Focus on the aspect of the alternative concrete projects, 
But very very important that grassrroot social mouvements from Tunisia, the event we imagine has to somehow serve the revolution process and fight capitalism

Orsan: we would like to see the real movements in Tunisia. we could contribute to change the WSF. lets move on to the other points. 
Orsan a dit que nous pouvions changer énormément les choses en montrant qui on est et ce qu'on sait faire. On va contribuer ainsi à changer le forum social mondial

Jasper: This discussion is going to carry on in the next meetings 
Jasper: il faut passer au point suivant.

Ounaies: the problem of Tunis is the system. The pressure of the economical and social sistem is very strong. We didnt get to a direct democracy as we were working for. Tunisia is asking for a good and real change and the international support is important. 

Marween: something has to be made. initiative of having a caravan. There were difficulties discussing this proposal with the commette. We speak about making a camp but it's very important to know the objectives behind these activities: it's really important to involve tunisian social movements from the base. Their presence is really important.
Before speaking about projects we need to see the faisability, it needs information, if you can go to tunisia before you should go. So we need to define the objective. 
If the objective is to go on the way of the revolution it's very important to understand that no of the groups that are revolutionnaries are involved in the organisation of the WSF & at best they will be just participants & at worst they won't be there at all.

Orsan: Technical point about agenda, agreements about engagement & what we are going to do there.

Fausto: In my opinion iF PEOPLE LIKE US DON't mobilize young people, there will be a very few young people at the WSF. If not there wont be young tunisian people in the forum as iT is prepared

2. Mailing list: we confirm the use of this list 
vous pouvez vous inscrire ici:
***please every body reading these minutes and interested in this project join in the above email list***
*** Svp tous ceux qui lisent ce compte rendu et sont intérressés par ce projet rejoignent le lien de la liste mail au dessus***

Jasper: Proposal to create another website from Jasper he can propose a good proposal for next time if there is people that want it too.
Proposition pour créer un autre site web et préparer une proposition de site pour la prochaine fois.

Dani: agree with proposal and suggested to use Open FSM site and we suggest we need admins to do that. he is happy not to be one of the admins. 
Il est d'accord avec la proposition et suggère d'utiliser Open FSM site en précisant qu'il faut des amis pour faire ça.

Marween: it can be good to engage with tunisian young tech comm people in tunis. if we use openFSM page this can demotivate tunisian paticipation to the initiative. my proposal is if tere is a consensus - if we want to have an independent and inclusive sapace we need to have same one online, 

Mariangela: 2-3 people from this group meet with Marween and work on such tools to be developed independantly. And it is urgent to have such tools and space to spread infornation. 

Fausto: I tried to join in openFSM page but had peroblems, can anyone explain. (Pierre expl.)

Daniel: Lets build this group and go on this via that group.  

Ounaies:  there is the need to mobilise young people in horizontal open assembly 

We consensuated to form a group to bring a proposal for the website in the next meeting 
Accord pour former un groupe qui proposera un site ouèbe à notre prochaine réunion

3. Name of the network organizing our participation in Tunis 

WSFkaramaFSM      +1+1+1+1+1+1+1-1+1+1-1+1
OccupyWSF             +1+1+1+1+1-1+1+1+1+-1
WSFtaketomaFSM   -1+1 +1-1-1+1-1-1+1+1-1
TakeWSFtomaFSM   +1-1+1-1-1-1+1-1-1-1
globalassembliesWSFSM    +1+1+1-1+1-1-1+1-1-1
Glocalassemblies -1-1-1-1-+1-1+1
TomaFSM                -1+1-1-1-1-1-1-1
GlobalSpringWSF     -1 -1-1-1-1-1+1-1-1-1
MoveFSMTunis,   -1  -1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1
2011move2FSM   -1 -1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1
wsftunis              -1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1
2011M2WSF,      -1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1
Newmov2WSF,    -1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1
Horizontal(streets)WSF        -1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1

argumentation on which wording is better! 

Carminda : better no tu use occupy mieux vaut ne pas utiliser occupy,
Nori: what do we want to do and how to do it ?
Fausto: Un autre FSM est possible/An other WSF is possible!
Marwen: the name depends on the objectives. If it's just indignados & occupy who do that taking the name makes sense, if it's more extended, not necessary. Second point: we're not clear about WSF so maybe takin back this name isn't good. third point: we'll grow up a lot, we have time to find a name with more people (end january as eg)
Ounaies: In Tunisia we say "Karama" (arabic) which means Indignados. Occupy but occupying what?
Marwen: WSF was decided by foreign peoples + lead comity isn't representative & is colonizing the civil society space. Tunisian people may feel that this WSF is colonizing them. This is given by north people & south people in tunisia aren't involved at all.

Decision about the name: we put -1 and +1 next to the names in order to delete the ones we dont like and keep the others for further discussion. People could add in the pad before next meeting 

4. Next meeting - when
there is a proposal for 3rd january. It has been decided it will be the 3rd January same space same time 
Jasper: Il y a des gens qui doivent partir maintenant, donc peut ètre on peut décider dans le prochain réunion. Réunion le 3 janvier? Il faut mettre + si oui, ou - si non. La proposition a été accpeté, la prochain réunion c'est le 3 janvier 2013.

there is a proposal to discuss the next points in the next meetings. Consensus 
Proposition de laisser les points qui restent pour la prochaine réunion, parce qu'on est fatigué-e-s. Consensus

5. Announcements: 

Orsan: Call from ETUC European Trade Union Confederation for day of action on the 13th or 14th of March - Alter Summit is an initiative or unions, NGOs and networks agrees with joining in that day and call for mobilisation and engage with other grroups and movement. There were meetingd on the 13th, 14th and 15th in Brussles to discuss this and we heard that ETUC European Trade Unions calls for an centrlised aciton in Brussels and European day of action, just before the Summit. This happens first time in ETUC history [will add links and more info] 
Appel d'ETUC pour une journée le 13 ou 14 mars - Alter Sommet est une initiative des ONGs et des réseaux pour mobiliser des autres groupes et mouvements. Il y a eu des rencontres les 13, 14 et 15 décembre à Brusels pour discuter sur cet événement, et on a entendu que ETUC Europen Trade Unions veut une action centralisé à Brusels et un Journée Européene d'action juste avant le Sommet. Ça c'est la premiére fois qui arrive dans l'histoire de l'ETUC (je vais ajouter des liens et plus d'information)

Fausto: alter summit on 7-8 June in Greece. we have to start thinking about a Tunisian participation
Alter sommet le 7-8 juin en Gréce, il faut qu'on commence à penser sur la participation tunisien 

Daniel: There was a meeting to start preparing the Citizens Pact, in Brussels, a process in the whole Europe, social movements lead the process, it is open and it could be very productive http://www.euroalter.com/ppp/events/3956/
Il y avait une rencontre pour commencer à preparer Citizens Pact à Brusels, un process dans tout l'Europe, les mouvements sociaux organisent le processus, c'est ouvert et peut être très productive

Mariangela: antiwar meeting 15th december. Next meeting on 20th January (will send the link) 
Rencontree anti guerre le 15 décembre. Le prochain rencontre sera le 20 janvier (je vais vous envoyer le lien)

Maureen: inviting people to go to Tunis before the forum. We need to see each other 
Il faut inviter les gens à venir à Tunis avant le FSM, il faut qu'on se voit

Kaylynn: there is not enough money for people in need. There will be a big demo next week. 
Il n'y a pas assez d'argent pour les gens qui ont besoin. Il aura un grand demostration la semaine prochaine

Carmida: via22 assembly has an open space and invites people updates from VIA22 : http://us6.campaign-archive2.com/?u=b16b840c1daf5c23507a9b37e&id=2776de1505&e=0c48f45e4c
Via 22 a ouvert un espace et invite les gens (vous avez le lien ici)

                            Messages saying good bye to everybody 
                            Messages d'au revoir 

Points pour la prochain réunion:
This points go to next meetings:

4. Can we come to an agreement on a very short statement indicating the purpose of our initiative (maybe not now, but within the next couple of weeks?) and what would be the main elements of such a statement?

5. Activities in Tunis: assemblies, caravan, migrants march, assemblies, open spaces, experience exchange workshop on citizen media

6.. Extended forum and local participation  from outside Tunis 

7.. Translation: how to solve the problem

8.. how to involve other people, groups, movements? 

9. . Financial aspect about activies & travelling and other infrastructures