• minutes cs 4 nov 09

last modified November 9, 2009 by pierre

Comcom chat November 4 - Plan


Start 1

who is coming to Dakar?. 2

Pierre –igor : For those who cannot come to Dakar 2

Agenda  context 3

Paco Mallory Jason : About mainstream media. 3

Starting on Website governance issue. 3

Jason : who is responsible for the design/maintenance/management of the different web tools  4

Jason mallory : case of wsftv.net - 4

Pierre: Three type of tasks to be made. 4

Igor :we have enough tools now and the question is to try to manage them.. 4

Pierre : event sites and collaborative sites. 5

paco :  tech meeting and simplicity adapted to our core participants. 5

Bettina : reference websites. 5

Igor : portal and diversity of sites. 5

Mallory- Pierre – Jason : about strengthening a group of tech people. 6

Pierre:  tech community and comcom with tech people bridging in both. 6

Mallory:  have an internet group in comcom.. 6

Jason – Bettina Part 1 of plan – which websites are we talking about 7

Pierre: organizational trends. 7

Pierre – bettina- paco  user support  web2.0 internet usage – simplicity and activists. 8

Jason- proposing a decision formulation  - are we ready to take it ?. 8

Jason : internet group inside participation group or as a specific group ?. 8

Facilitation of internet group. 9



[21:21:36] paco : ola

[21:53:15] Mallory : ola, sorry i'm late. the time changed here over the weekend

[21:54:42] paco : how are you Mallory, Bettina she is coming and Jason has connection problem

[21:54:57] Mallory : i am very well, how are you? has the weekly chat begun?

[21:55:18] paco : I was here alone but jason will try to reach us

[21:55:38] Peter P.: hello, i am here

[21:55:48] paco : ciao Peter I'm paco from italy

[21:56:15] Peter P.: ciao paco from italy :)

[21:57:30] paco : Peter you are from where?

[21:57:53] Peter P.: New York City

[21:59:28] paco : Mallory anyone from Ussf will go to Copenaghen ?fro the Cop15?

[22:00:44] Mallory : there are people with ggj alliance doing outreach and fundrasing for the ussf that will attend. will you be going?

[22:01:12] paco : yes I'm going with bettina and an other camerade to film

[22:01:12] Igor : hi antonio and everyeone!!!!!! Igor from ASF African Social Forum

[22:01:25] paco : Ola Igor ciao

[22:01:34] Igor : the meeting start late today

[22:01:41] paco : yes .......

[22:01:41] Igor : ola Antonio! how are u doing?

[22:01:50] Mallory : hello igor!

[22:01:59] Igor : Hi!

[22:02:01] paco : quite well and you?

[22:02:23] Igor : trouble with computer, doing some maintenance

[22:02:46] paco : I hope that Jason can reach us soon and aslo somebody else

[22:03:47] Igor : Pierre told me that he'll be late!

[22:03:53] Pierre: hello

[22:04:02] paco : ciao Pierre

[22:04:35] Igor : ah pierre je disais aux autres que tu allais avoir un peu de retard! salut!

[22:05:02] Pierre: yes merci igor,  my meeting went longer than expected (it is about a social forum linked to 2010. in paris region ...) :

[22:05:49] bettina: hallo every body! i am sick! flue and keep coughing sorry but i will come and go

[22:06:06] Mallory : hi bettina

 [22:07:11] Jason: Hi everybody!  I'm having some problems with my internet connection, so if I disappear it's not because I want to...

[22:07:36] paco : ciao Jason

who is coming to Dakar?

[22:10:05] Jason: Hi Igor - how's the preparation of Dakar going?

[22:11:01] Igor : ah ok, in com com group, who is coming to this meeting?

[22:11:19] Igor : Jason, are you coming?

[22:11:53] Jason: Yes, and also Rita and Salete should be coming.

[22:12:55] Igor : ah ok, just to know bcoz I don't have the list here

[22:13:12] paco : I dont come Igor

 [22:14:43] Susan : IPS will be represented in Dakar by Terna Gyuse, the IPS Africa Regional Editor from South Africa

[22:15:56] Jason: And someone from Amarc should also be there, and Panos, etc.  I hope we'll have enough time to discuss on communication issues with the people involved in it.

 [22:16:34] Igor : please more information are on asf website, and I think those who are coming had already contact the secretariat

[22:17:42] Jason: ok.

[22:17:44] Igor : jason I think my collegue Awa try to get in touch with about information on your organisation. I gave to her what I found on the openfsm. But please try to send to her your contact. I don’t know if it's already done

[22:25:22] Jason: Thanks Igor - I'll check with her.  We'll also have a new member from TWN Africa network - Emmanuel Bensah.

Should we go ahead with our agenda from last time? We've started very late.

Pierre –igor : For those who cannot come to Dakar

[22:13:21] Pierre: and those who cannot come , can participate somehow here i suppose

http://openfsm.net/projects/fsmfsa-forum-mondial-2011-de-dakar-seminaire-de/summary  -is it so igor?

[22:14:07] Igor : yes and those who are coming, I think it will be nice to have a look on this space bcoz we'll try to upload information on this space

 [22:16:05] Pierre: igor, shall we also use the mailing list ?

http://openfsm.net/projects/fsmfsa-forum-mondial-2011-de-dakar-seminaire-de/lists/fsmfsa-forum-mondial-2011-de-dakar-seminaire-de-discussion and wki

 [22:17:44] Igor : yes Pierre [22:22:49] Pierre: igor, following on the mailing list at the moment we are mostly people from comcom on the space , are you planning to invite people from senegal and asf in that space ?

[22:25:22] Pierre: (you can technically  invite some people directly  in the mailing list (you have got the permission to do so   like bettina and antonio have for wsftv.net space .-) )

[22:27:09] Igor : right now I tried this afternoon to add some new adress, taoufik, Demba and the senegalen social forum contact. But I have to discuss with them before rhe week-end

[22:27:58] Igor : bcoz this week-end the senegalen social forum organize a meeting here in dakar and i'll meet some members

[22:28:17] Pierre: good news

Agenda  context

[22:25:22] Jason: Should we go ahead with our agenda from last time? We've started very late.

 [22:27:33] paco : Bene we have to finalize the plan and pass on the different items in practise I think. Jason you told me that you was writing a intro today also there is some point made by Mallory and was the mail of Roberto I spoke with Roberto and i suggest to put the propsal from IPS in the annex and he agreed .I hope that this evening we reach a common point because as you seen the Liaison group sent the guideline for the 2010 without any mention of the com ....we are in late//

 [22:34:57] Jason: Antonio, the letter about 2010 mobilisation was sent by the wsf2010 working group, not the liason one.  We need to make a specific letter on communication issues to send them soon (we didn't have all the referent people of the organising committees until now).

Paco Mallory Jason : About mainstream media

[22:34:38] paco : since nobodies write I will take just for few second more the writing space.

[22:34:50] paco : Mallory are you here yet?

 [22:35:04] Mallory : hi, i'm here!

[22:35:16] paco : Okey Jason sorry Mallory was only to say my opinion about mainstream media and your consideration on one side I agree that we have to built our network on he other side I think that it is very important distribute images about the content of wsf trough international tv broadcasters distribution network: eurovison for example because we can reach millions of people like we made in Belem//

[22:37:21] Mallory : yes, it's a really difficult debate, i'm sure that there has been a lot about it already said in com com.but i think of our audience. who is our audience? and does the mainstream media actually fulfil citizens' needs for news?

this debate is very interesting among alternative media people, so i am peripherally involved in this, but i think it's completely political. i just wanted to share my position and hopefully spark the necessary and ongoing debate amongst the media people. that the "decision" can never fully be made, as we will always disagree, but that in these times of rewriting our plan that we talk about the decision again

[22:41:45] Jason: we've been discussing about this since the inception of the comcom - and I think we need to keep space for both visions.  But this is something that should be discussed in a strategy seminar of the comcom, which I really hope we can make next year (maybe attached to one of the 2010 events).

[22:42:24] Mallory : :)

[22:44:05] Jason: Can we go through the headers of the "final" version (!) Antonio and Bettina sent?

Starting on Website governance issue

[22:44:42] Pierre: friends i remind that there is a discussion which  we started last time and did not reach even a clear understanding between ourselves not speaking of decisions

it is about how to organize the work on the various websites. The minutes show that we have just touched the issue and  have not yet clarified its terms  and taken the full picture between us all


[22:48:48] paco : Please jason go forward with the headers then  we speak about the point of Pierre. Because the issues of the internet websites is crucial.if every bodies agree//

[22:50:01] Mallory : the issues of the website are addressed in the final plan, too, of course

Jason : who is responsible for the design/maintenance/management of the different web tools

[22:51:09] Jason: I think there are 2 main issues:  this plan is mainly on 2010, which we should also have some activities dedicated to the build up of 2011; it is not clear who will be responsible for the design/maintenance/management of the different web tools -- in this version, all of these activities seemed concentrated on infra/technology.  Also, to me now the direct connection between activities and working groups is less evident, so I would like this to be cleared.

[22:54:04] paco : okey on my opinion there are 2 things very important:

1/ on one side is the result of the web site till now....process....open.....wsf2008......they are user friendly? we can improve them without leave a good heritage ?

2/second is the team I think that we have to built a group, I'm only a user and I don’t want the get involved in any design because is not my job

[22:55:04] Mallory : yes!

[22:55:28] paco : so I thought that maybe we can start with a group made by dimitry ethan mallory luca and the brasilian

Jason mallory : case of wsftv.net -

 [22:55:30] Jason: But antonio, you have been involved in the design of wsftv - together with who developed it.

[22:55:45] paco : of course Jason but you know my opinion : I think that the web side must be easy and we have to be carefully to put many tools like wiki that is an advanced thingh//

[22:56:29] Mallory : wsftv.net is a perfect example of what the web team will not be responsible for

[22:56:48] Jason: explain, Mallory!

 [22:57:31] Mallory : it's not just about creating websites. it's about having a body that is collaborative and political that is able to stay functional in the com com ongoingly, to make decisions on the wsf level for cohesion, decision-making, etc.: and then maybe some other websites will get built ;)

Pierre: Three type of tasks to be made

[23:00:07] Pierre: i guess there are three type of tasks   here  :

1- functional political discussion deriving functionalities from wsf methodology and culture

2-technical implementation and support

3- permanent user support information inclusion

they are interrelated

[23:00:37] Mallory : please don't say that you want to make these three different groups

[23:00:50] Pierre: i have talked of "tasks" not groups and so far the organisation is having all those tasks in the same group depending the focus of the website

Igor :we have enough tools now and the question is to try to manage them

[23:02:37] paco : I think that we can start from the experience that we made . and for me since all the organization has a web site we have to provide to give a space of meeting and of exchange of content like was wsfprocess.net //

 [23:01:37] Jason: [Igor, were you about to say something?]

[23:06:28] Igor : sorry,  im in maintenance, some problem with computer here. just something: let me just try to understand . right now behind, ....process....open.....wsf2008....., I think there a team. We want to build a new team for doing what specifically? in the list of proposal (final version) there is a need of a wsf portal, is about a new website? bcoz in my mind we have enough tools now and the question is to try to manage them

[23:07:15] Mallory : yes, igor, this is also so important and impossible without a cohesive team that makes decisions together and works to maintain what is already been done? so shall we continue with the final plan headings?

Pierre : event sites and collaborative sites

[23:07:25] Pierre: antonio i agree that this type of site  is important.. there are two websites to be considered  no just one : 1/an event website( which can have extended functionalities to become a process onE) and 2/ a collaborative website


There are several  experiences so far 

- wsf2007+wsfprocess.net (still on line and working ,useful for dakar 2011)

-esf2008.org and openesf.net

-and now ... some event sites for 2010  ( a variety of them ) and openfsm.net and other collaborative spaces

- also looking towards something for dakar 2011  event+ collaborative

In our current organisation,  this couple of sites is to be worked on and supported in "participation" group

Now comes the notion of portal site ..... added in the big picture

 [23:10:44] Pierre: in the participation group there are people with technical experience, on this couple of sites and also there is the software support community to be strengthened .. facilitators and organizers welcome to share this task

[23:12:40] Pierre: event site :a the moment in this wsf software support community space there is a starting project about event site .... which can also be implemented in plone and drupal , because there are so many events .. and we need diversity …..but we need good embedding of wsf methodology in these site

paco :  tech meeting and simplicity adapted to our core participants

 [23:09:07] paco : What i propose is to make a meeting with all the web designer etc etc and us and together find a solution, analyze the cost, the time to realize the job and the time of delivering etc. to put all of us in a good path and simplify the machine. But this job for me must be done with the tech teams  //

If I can conclude one problem that we have is that we wont to put many tools inside that is not necessary because the target of the user is people that use internet in a simple way, also how it is said in the research of Ibase made in Belem 52% percent of the partecipant ( approx ) use internet for the mail for information

[23:12:59] Jason: [pls, let's not make a dialogue between 2 people - I am curious to know what Igor was going to say as well as others]

[23:13:14] paco : yes sorry jason and all//

[23:13:30] Pierre: ok... halting a bit

Bettina : reference websites

[23:13:52] bettina: i think we need reference websites, not some that disappear after a while, website that work for everybody, I am sceptical about new websites for example, why was not considered the developing of 2008gda site? the portal idea was to simplify different tasks for users that come to wsf a homepage redesigned may have a map from there are linked different local website since each forum will probably create his own

Igor : portal and diversity of sites

 [23:17:11] Igor : ok, with Bettina,  but as said antonio is it better that the technical team may meet to talk about it. Bcoz for me, right now we need a portal website have just this role to link all the events. each social forum is going to create is own site and the wsf portal can link them

Mallory- Pierre – Jason : about strengthening a group of tech people

[23:15:44] Mallory : i think it's not that people haven't thought of these things, but that there has not been a solid technical team. and it's not been seen as a political force either. and so techies feel like carpenters, they have no political interest in the group. we need to change that. (i know you're all tired of hearing me say this)

 [23:17:34] Pierre: mallory : i agree on strengthening the tech community around wsf .. that is what  http://openfsm.net/projects/wsfssc/project-home is about ... it is a place to be stimulated and organized (using your words )

 [23:18:10] bettina: i think i agree with mallory if what she is saying is we  need ONE group ( not 2 or 3 or more) which team is of technical people is it like this mallory? in which as comcom give to them our needs and they find a way to give solutions. The facilitator of that group must be a tech that links with comcom as a whole

[23:20:18] Pierre: bettina : what you say  is the scope of  wsf software support community not the scope of a comcom group per se

[23:20:45] Jason: Mallory, on what you just said, we've always involved people who were politically committed (or coming from the regional social forums) and tried to have them take part to the more general discussions or to become a "team", but it is not easy and this certainly is an area which needs to be improved (it is also a matter of working mainly online with people from all over the world... in 2007 we had people from India, Brasil, France, USA, Italy, etc.. trying to work together...).

[23:20:47] bettina: all these groups pierre gives me headache sorry

[23:21:07] Mallory : yes... there was talk of me facilitating one of the previously identified 2-3 tech groups. i think it will make the group stronger if there are fewer facets defined within com com. i like that you make it 1 of 4 points on the final plan

ok, jason, i understand. and when you say "it's not easy" i'm trying to help you and us identify why it is difficult. of course, all of the groups in the wsf are international! tech must also rise to the occasion as has alternative media, etc.

[23:22:04] paco : mallory I think that the political job and success is to give simple tools that can be used by people, for example in Africa where the people  have to travel 3 hour to reach a internet cafe and cannot be on internet for hours and hours. we made many meeting about that and was precise request from india and africa //

[23:22:45] Mallory : i agree, paco. and i would love to be part of such a team that is able to work in this very important, globally-conscious way about its technology. it would be a dream

Pierre:  tech community and comcom with tech people bridging in both

[23:22:59] Pierre: mallory : expanding wsf ssc and maintaining a friendly link and political articulation witih comcom  in it,  is a demanding task ..offered to people willing to take it , and wsf ssc can be a place where all the tech people around the existing websites can gather and exchange

Then the most interested involved tech people active in wsf software support community  are also welcome to step  in comcom but i guess not as tech people doing jobs for other groups, more as organizers and visionary  with tech experience that is why we need to take time to understand each other, because i think we are not very far way in what we envision

Mallory:  have an internet group in comcom

[23:24:31] Mallory : both being visionaries and doing work is required by the same group

[23:25:11] bettina: yes mallory

[23:27:03] Pierre: mallory , this is a long road.. the history of wsf and free software movement has not been simple...  the fact of having a wsf ssc space is an attempt, i guess realistic ,  to create a community close to com com and also close to free software people ; in this community  there can be the mix of vision and work that you are talking about

[23:28:54] Mallory : there is no actual reason, other than "this is how it's always been", given so far to justify keeping the carpenters separate from the architects.:

 i am suggesting that a merge will make it stronger on both counts then this group may grow and not be dragged down by individuals trying to accomplish a task list

[23:30:39] Jason: I agree with Mallory on this point. 

[23:31:25] bettina: good mallory!

[23:30:44] Pierre: so if i understand you you are proposing to include wsf SSC as a group of comcom?

[23:33:44] Mallory : no, pierre. i am proposing that internet technology be a group in com com. this large and open umbrella can address many things. we shall see in what glorious ways it can grow. but let us not plan for its function, but to mobilize instead

[23:33:45] bettina: ssc is what?

[23:34:06] Pierre: software support community for wsf


there are 25 people in it with various levels of involvement

[23:37:36] Mallory : there is minimal activity on the list (which is my only level of invovelemtn) but an exciting place to start mobilizing people for a larger internet tech group

[23:38:26] paco : You are right mallory


 Jason – Bettina Part 1 of plan – which websites are we talking about

Back to the plan:  In part 1 (INTERNAL COMMUNICATION NETWORK FOR PARTECIPATION -- by the way, I don't get the "network" in this title), there is point 1.2 (communication web strategy) which looks very alike to point 2.1 (Web site strategy).  Can we merge them in one, are am I missing a point?

[23:33:11] bettina: yes jason they are the same but taken from the 2 different points of view, 2 different sites probably and network meant the possibility for each to reach any other

 [23:35:00] Mallory : (friends, i must leave in less than 30 minutes, sorry to have left so quickly last week - time slipped by!!)

[23:35:20] Jason: (same for me - I have little time left)

[23:37:11] Jason: Bettina: why 2 websites, aren't we trying to simplify things and concentrate them in the portal?  Or are you thinking of the wsf2008 website?  I think the web sites or tools that are mentioned in the plan should be named (the existing ones).

 [23:38:34] bettina: i mean in point 1 a website that works; i don’t know if process.net revisited since it is still working and has a llot of "memory", or open revisited but i am sceptical about it and in point 2  i meant to think about how wsf can show itself ( there was the idea to redesign wsf main web site that can become the gate to all other sites as  detailed at point 4

Pierre: organizational trends

[23:40:43] Pierre: the  vision that has developed for organizing web in times nearly nobody  was ready  to have this discussion)  is  :

-webconscious people and political techies in each functional group (media participation memory)

-a global functional methodological technical discussion about portal

-wsf software community, stimulated by comcom participants who are part of it ,  to take care of projects with input of the com com group

[23:41:31] Pierre: now i understand  there is a push to merge the  three things in one "large internet group" directly in comcom

in practice i guess there will be techies that may  stay out of this group because they do not feel identified enough so it may be wise to maintain wsf ssc as an intermediate space

[23:45:48] Mallory : we can work out the best way to outreach to a community to grow the group some other time if people feel it is more important to address the plan that others have worked so hard to write before this meeting with only 15 minutes left...

Pierre – bettina- paco  user support  web2.0 internet usage – simplicity and activists

[23:47:00] Pierre: also would this "internet group" also responsible for supporting the users of the tools functional and technical support

[23:47:16] bettina: for example pierre, i just say that as user, i feel very frustrated with open.net, and wonder how many other abandon , i wish that people find easy what they look for; how can we respond to this need without going for interminable processes? if the tool is easy, it does not need much support!!!!

[23:49:01] Mallory : sure, pierre, i think also there could be some support from local organizing groups to even help secure infrastructure, etc. the group can of course break up and have its own committees, interactions with local organizing groups, etc. but it should be a large and permanent function of the com com. this alone will draw interest from people because they will be treated as thinkers not just as "techies" again, i hope that we can give due time to the final plan?

[23:50:06] Pierre: bettina the challenge of making activists progressively become  web2.0 users is huge everywhere , you can ask mallory about the ussf2007 experience ...

[23:50:15] paco : Pierre why you have to complicate any single process? Lets do a meeting with the few people that tiil now are active and help us like mediatria the people from grece mallory Igor, and of course the brasilian . and start to solve this problem. and then assign between us the task. we cannot make theory theory. then if there are the condition the community will grow. The people are not living everynight on the web

and about 2.0 I'm still back on one simple concept the campesinos, the fisherman, the indigenous peple are our task. facilitate facilitate and i think that this can be a super challenge for every technicians how it is done in brasil already //

[23:53:43] bettina: its seem to me you want to build a futurist superman website...it is like buying a super camere with a lot of features and tools when i really need to 1 simple task

[23:54:49] Igor : i'm back!!!!! Jason, im ready to discuss even if you're far

Jason- proposing a decision formulation  - are we ready to take it ?

[23:57:21] Jason: Friends, this discussion is not bringing us far, I'm afraid.  What we are supposed to agree on here (coming from our previous discussions and how the last proposal (not "final") has re-organised the objectives) is if there should be a infra/tech group integrated with the "internal communication/participation" wg.  Can we at least decide on this?

[00:00:23] Jason: ok - I guess it is not for this meeting and we need more time.  For my part, I will send my comments to the plan and we can exchange some more online.

[00:01:44] bettina: i see the tech group part of the comcom more than only in pic group, the web strategy is to be seen as a whole insiede all the commission than of course it interacts within specific groups anyway i agree jason, lets go on in mailing list

[00:02:59] Mallory : i'm not sure why we can't make a decision now. it seems virtually unanimous

[00:03:11] Igor : 2010 is not so far, if we want to have a tool to link the 2010 events, we have to make a decision

[00:03:17] Mallory : but yes, i have to go. i look forward to seeing you all next week!

are there objections? we should allow for an announcement on the list and a question if people have objections

[00:04:14] paco : people when we think to close the plan and take the last decision also when we can have this meeting with the tech people? time pass//

Jason : internet group inside participation group or as a specific group ?

[00:06:25] Jason: Just to be clear - so we can send this to the comcom list - Mallory you are for reinforcing the existing group or, as bettina says, creating a separate group?

[00:07:05] Mallory : yes. the group separate such that it's a new addition to the com com and will be tasked with internet technology largely, politically, etc....

[00:07:56] Pierre: then mallory  i suppose many people will want to be in that group.. :).

[00:08:16] Mallory : goodness, i hope so! because now we have so very few: that's the idea, of course ;)

[00:08:22] paco : good Mallory also if we are few

Facilitation of internet group

[00:08:41] bettina: so mallory will you facilitate it?!

[00:08:56] Mallory : ok, much love! have to run.... yes i can facilitate

[00:09:25] Pierre: also non tech people form other groups willing to interact about portal and the site they care about

[00:09:27] Igor : facilitate what? the tech  meeting?

[00:10:00] bettina: pierre, how many other groups will you create?

[00:10:59] Peter P.: have to run, good night all, look forward to progress! :)

[00:11:25] Jason: No, Igor, the working group on ICT...

[00:11:26] bettina: good nite to all, ciao buonanotte

[00:11:30] Pierre: thanks bettina for the humour

well in that case, i am also willing  to facilitate this internet group

[00:11:34] paco : ciao Peter

[00:12:23] paco : okey Mallory thanks for your help to facilitate the group

[00:13:01] Jason: Then I guess we can close the meeting with one decision (I remind you that each working group needs 2 facilitators, so someone else should join with Mallory)!

[00:13:31] Pierre: i have just say i could do it and i guess more people can join in this role

[00:14:52] Jason: we'll decide this next time.

[00:15:04] paco : yes Jason so thanks to everybodies i will go to sleep //

[00:18:13] Jason: bye

[00:18:25] Pierre: ciao all