• forum connect session6 transcription

last modified October 24, 2021 by facilitfsm


 FORUM CONNECT SESSION FC6 7 SEPT 2021 - https://join.wsf2021.net/activities/9182

@1 Intro - @3Trevor - @5 Massa - @8 Mike  - @8B Victor  -  @10 Rosa - @12 Gus - @14Mike -  @15 Massa - @17 Pierre  - @20 Meena  -  @22 Mike - @23 Sophie  - @25  - @26 Sophie


  •  Each intervention is numbered  @001  to @035  and the time corresponds to the video and In each intervention are outlined and numbered @1 @2 @3 ; etc  the main ideas expressed  
  • so references can be made this way @005-1 @032-5 etc

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17mn 

@001 Hi Trevor it's meena meeting you after ages and ages 

Mike it's 17 years

Pierre we're trying to get on-board Massa Victo and Sophie

Mike Massa is from Mali, and Sophie is joining us from Kenya 

Pierre: and Victor from Congo

Mike: Trevor if you have a short CV that you could put in the chat and contact details that sort of things to share if you want to 

We have a volunteer interpreter with us today Clauida who would be doing English into French and French into English. It is very important that we will remember the interpreters when they're talking. Speak clearly slowly preferably with a headset if you have one handy just to cut the background noises ,and such, if during and meeting I made this kind of motion, please slow down your speech for them. 

The meeting will be approximately 2-hours depends, we will see how it goes. it's been recorded as well . Be aware there will be a public document available after the meeting. Don't say anything that you do not want to say in public

Meena : I often make that mistake 

Mike it's not a private chat. any news I see Gus is with us Hi Gus from the WSF IC

Gus hello everybody

Meena: hi Gus how are you?

Gus :lovely to see you 

Mike : thank you for joining us today day

Pierre If necessary you will start Mike Trevor, am trying to get hold of the other ones 

He was going to connect, and victor also, but they're not appearing and Sophie is not aMike 20mn

Mike You live in interesting Times Trevor. South Africa issues have been highlighted in the past few weeks

Trevor ; yes it is keeping us buzy. people say please “ tell us what's going on” No one knows

Mike: Abeshlali http://abahlali.org/ they have been putting out very coherent statements. Well-thought-out, taking the middle ground, between the populist rhetoric of Malema in EFF and the statist narrative from Ramaphosa http://abahlali.org/node/17320/

Trevor: yeah yeah they good

 we did invite Abeshlali to join us, but often internal processes are slow

Mike: yeah but I'm I hope we can get people like Richard and others joining us, and Patrick Bond. We should also have participation from comrades from via campesina

Trevor: it's good

Mike : Any response Pierre?

Pierre : I had Massa on the phone, he said he was connecting

Mike : Victor is here and I am promoting him to panelist. If we are three of us, we should start. People are busy and have other things to do. We will begin and Short Introduction:

ForumConnect is a self organised group consisting of Pierre George Mike Davies meana Menon and kinshi Lau 

you're coming through on the English Channel Claudia can you talk Claudia just translate and I see if you're on the French channel
Kinchi Claudia you should switch to another channel

 

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24mn

@002 Mike So forumconnect is a group established last year to promote dialogue between participants, social movements, and organizers and participants in the world social forum. The ideas to mobilize people to start working for Mexico in 2022. 

So we have had a number of sessions, https://join.wsf2021.net/organizations/3387 primarily in Asia, and, out of that dialogue, a working group for the word social forum is developing, and these will all regions and continents to develop a single voice to participate in world social forum.

There will be more discussion about ForumConnect in due course, but there is a lot of online information. Pierre if you are able to share the links to the various documents, that would be useful. http://openfsm.net/projects/forum-connect/forum-connect-documentation 

So,housekeeping first : we have an interpreter, please speak slowly and clearly and remember Iour volunteer interpreter. if you are in a noisy place we appreciate it if you use headphones to diminish background voice.

Right Welcome everybody to this discussion between social movements and activist regarding the participation in the world social forum 


My name is Mike Davis and I am based in Harare, Zimbabwe and I come from the international Alliance of inhabitants,https://join.wsf2021.net/organizations/4425  which has participated pretty much in all the word social Forum in the last 20-years. 

With me today are my colleagues Pierre George Kinchi Laul and Meena Menon which many of you will know I will hand over and last and ask them to briefly introduce themselves and say a few words. 


Meena : hi Mike shall I go first ?Hello my name is Meena Menon. I work with labour Union. I'm working president of a network of organisations working on labour in India, WPC https://join.wsf2021.net/organizations/14541 and I also work with labor research with AEPF that's asia-europe People's Forum https://aepf.info where I coordinate the social justice cluster with another colleague of mine

 I'm also part of the four people who belong to Forum connect who are kind of facilitating these discussions around the Forum, in order to explore the possibilities of expanding the discourse on the forum in Asia and Africa. We also did a meeting in Asia yesterday within Asian organisation so we are doing that. I was involved with the social forum particularly in the 20O4 social forum in Mumbai

28mn 

kinchi : hello everybody, my name is in KinChi and I teach in Lingnan university in Hong Kong and also am coordinator of the programme of Culture sustainability in the center for cultural development and research, and also in this university.

In 2015 and in the Tunis world social forum,the global University For sustainability was launched,https://join.wsf2021.net/organizations/880 with 200 founding members, and I am one of those, and the executive team work with my team is in Hong Kong. And I'm also a member of the ForumConnect working group. Nice to meet you all.

Pierre: I'm Pierre George I'm a volunteer from caritas organisation https://join.wsf2021.net/organizations/876 , which is member international international council of the world social forum, and i am part of this Collective Forumconnect.


@002B Mike: Today we will start with a few reflections and presentations from activists who have participated in world social forums, and that would be followed by general discussion, based around some of the points that Forumconnect has raised, as questions we need to look at. If you can give a Short Introduction before your presentation; rather than doing itnow 


And I would like to start now with Trevor Gwane from South Africa, who is a comrade and an activists for 40 years plus, and was very active in the memorable events in Nairobi in 2007 at the world social forum. So Trevor you have 7 to 10 minutes to make your comments and observations. Over to you.


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@003 Trevor: Thank you very much. it's an honour to be here ( and must mute the translation - listen in the original channel) so it's an opportunity to talk about the word social forum

So I will be mainly we speaking with reference to the past, because I have not been very active of late, so I share some my experiences and thoughts about the world social forum 

@1 The main point of my talk is that the world social forum, whatever it is today, or will become in the future, at its birth, at its inception, was one of the greatest organising initiatives in the history of social movements. It did not achieve its full potential, but it's still possible that he will still do that, or at the very least, provide lessons for future similar initiatives 


I attended every forum a meeting from its inception in 2001 in Porto Alegre Brazil 2002 2003 to Mumbai 2004 wherever we went to, and my last meeting was 2007 in Nairobi Kenya 

@2 After Nairobi, I kind of lost heart and enthusiasm , but I will talk about this towards the end 

So tu understand the importance of the world social forum,@3  let me make a few remarks about what I call “the totalizing power of capitalism 


Capitalism capital as we all know, is a global Force. In fact, the world social forum initiative followed a lot of discussion in the world, about globalisation, that is the internationalisation of the capitalist system of production in the world, and to quote Karl Marx, the need of an ever expanding market for its products chases the bourgeoisie over the entire surface of the Globe.


It must nestle and settle everywhere, establish connections everywhere, and that is quoting Marx to underline that this has been the nature , the character of capitalism, for a long time.

So, there is globalisation on the one hand, but what is often neglected about capitalism is its totalizing power, in other words, capital imposes itself upon every aspect of society, upon every human activity.


It imposes its order, its control and domination upon everything and everyone. So it is an oppressive, exploitative order based on who has the wealth and who doesn't have the wealth, ordinary classy working class people, in particular are forced to live dominated oppressed and controlled by capital. 


Here in South Africa, ordinary working class life is a life of crisis. Everything is a crisis job, housing, education, services, income, healthcare, food, security, everything is a struggle for the millions, for the majority. This is the story of life of millions, and we know it is not what they choose,it is something that is forced upon them by the totalizing power of capital.


@4 What does it mean to someone who is hungry who must walk past a shop that is filled with food, because they have no money? What does it mean to someone who must let pass a bus and walk, because there is no money? What does it mean to someone who is sick, and past a chemist filled with medicines, because there's no money? Where is the crime when people must be hungry, when their food, they must be sick, when there is medicine, they must walk when there is a bus, because there is no money? How can it be that they are the criminals.


So you know my comrade was asking me about the looting in South Africa where there was entire shops, shopping malls vandalism. 

So I ask myself what are we and who are we if we moralize about the people taking what they need, when they are forced every day to go without. 


So now, the world social forum , it provided a vision of alternatives to that kind of situation. @5 So the world social forum came into the scene during such a time like today, with ordinary people everywhere in the world feeling, suffering the totalizing power of capital. The forum represented a response to this. A big no, as we used to say at the time. A rejection of oppression and exploitation, and it provided, suggested a vision of alternatives.


The slogans and demands associated with the forum were about anti privatization, antiapartheid, anti imperialism, anti-capitalism. This was a rejection of what? Of everything oppressive! All these things carried a totalising Vision, a vision of another world. Therefore the slogan of the world social forum was “ another word is possible”. Otro mundo es posible.


Now, if the word social forum wanted to struggle for a different word it had to number 1 name the Beast it was fighting and number 2 how to develop a plan how to slay the Beast.


In my experience, although the anti-capitalism was wearing the program and demands of the people related to the world social forum,@6 there was a tendency to project the struggle as against neoliberalism rather than capitalism himself. -

You'll find this also in the statement of principle. I don't know why this happened, but later I came to suspect that maybe the funders of the word social forum must have something to do with this. 


Because it was an expensive affair, this annual meeting. We were flowing from Africa, Latin America, Asia and  that  must have taken a lot of money. I mean who pays the piper calls the tune. @7 There was also a refusal by the forum to adopt concrete programmes of action, and own them as belonging to the world social forum. 


@8 The idea of a space at first seemed great, it allowed everyone to come with their struggles and be part of the world social forum. 

But the idea was, in my opinion, pushed to extremes, whereby the world social forum could not allow itself to issue any statement, in order to preserve the Sanctity of its face. So it seemed to trap the world social forum into paralysis and non action. 


It was as if it was suspended in the air. But on the ground were problems, such as trying to join together different experiences, practices and demands, including different political cultures and traditions. Due to time I am not going to these, but we have the African social Forum, and @9 one of the splits and divisions, which we were struggling with , was between anglophone and francophone Africa, and things like that.


So you know , we are all about politics of resistance, organising, of Unity, so it was not suspended in the air, nothin about space. So when the statement of principles was raised of the word social forum during debate it was it had the effect of stopping the process of trying to solve these real problems of unity mobilising organizing 


Then my last point is that too much power of capital, the private power, what is needed is the power of the masses, and this must be organised on the ground. @10 Of course, you need coordination and this happens in board rooms etc but on the ground you need mass action, whereby people in Nairobi, people In Venezuela can decide “on this day all of us will come out together”


So I think you know all these things about space etc tended to undermine this, and my last meeting in Nairobi was disappointing, because I found my comrades there, they were too close to capital, to the state, @11 and it ended up looking like the world social forum was a structure to accommodate the elite of the social movements, rather than the rank and file, and I believe that the power is with the rank-and-file, Ordinary People.


@12 Indeed in South Africa, the power is with those looters, of course, they need a vision and politics, but those that the people who can fight and help us build a Better World 

but I still believe strongly having learnt from the word social forum, that another word is possible thank you.


 

41mn

@004 Mike : Thanks Trevor for the perspectives. I think Trevor has Grounded the process within a critique of capitalism, and we all recognised neoliberalism is just one expression of capitalism that has taken hold in the past 40 years. 

The criticisms around Nairobi and such, I think are very justified; and glad you brought them up,@1 Nairobi was the first WSF for me, and obviously I had nothing to compare it to, but it was very apparent that it was mostly an NGO fair, bringing together NGOs and the Donors. Many of us activists and community organizers were sidelined, very true observation.


Trevor also raised the ongoing debate  that is still rolling Trevor, about the nature of the world social forum, as either space, or an agent in itself ,that can issue statements.

This debate is not been settled in the 14 years since Nairobi, and I think it is part of a healthy dialectics that animates the world social forum, but it does divert our attention into endless debate, rather than developing the WSF


Again grounding he WSF in the struggles and leave to reality of working-class Communities is critical for our mandate, it must not come from Ngos and Donors. Thank you very much for your contribution Trevor I hope you'll stay for the Debate and the other contributions

 

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I would like now to invite my dear friend and colleague who has been out of touch for some time, from Mali Kone massa is a great comrade who has participated in many events with the International Alliance of inhabitants, Kone if you can introduce yourself. Over to you 


44mn

@005 Massa; Bonjour camarades militants. bonjour camarades altermondialistes

Je me présente: je m'appelle Massa Kone, je suis de no vox en Afrique http://www.no-vox.net/  donc j'ai la charge de la coordination NoVox Afrique. Je suis le porte-parole de la convergence globale des luttes pour la terre, l'eau et les semences paysannes ouest-africaine. https://africaconvergence.net/ 

Je suis membre du conseil international du Forum social mondial via le no vox 

Je suis très enchanté aujourd'hui d'intervenir avec beaucoup de camarades militants convaincus dont je vois les noms qui sont là : nos professeurs de luttes, nos repère. C'est très intéressant, je suis très ravi d'intervenir sur un autre plateau du Forum social mondial. 


@1 J'aimerais d'abord parler un peu du forum, et de notre compréhension en tant que mouvement des luttes de base communautaires, en lutte pour leur survie. Nous nous battons pour notre survie, nous nous battons parce qu'on n’ a pas eu notre place à la gouvernance du système capitaliste. Nous nous battons pour sauvegarder nos vies, sauvegarder nos biens et pour notre intérêt. 


Et donc il faut que les gens le comprennent ainsi: donc nous sommes condamnés à avancer avec notre lutte, car nous ne sommes pas d'accord avec le système érigé par le système capitaliste, qui leur forme de gouvernance et de développement qui ne nous sert pas, mais qui sert les riches, les multinationales, et les politiciens qui sont à leur service.


Le Forum social mondial, j'ai participé à beaucoup de séquences du Forum social mondial, à plusieurs séquences même ( oui MIke je vais parler doucement, c'est dans ma nature de parler vite, on n'a pas trop de temps) @2 cet espace du Forum social mondial était un espace où on cultivait nos connaissances, on cultivait nos connaissances,on échangeait nos expériences, on nouait aussi des relations.


L'espace du Forum social mondial était comme pour nous, pour la lutte, un pèlerinage, un espace de pèlerinage, où les mouvements sociaux, les grandes visions, les grands idéologues qui ont une autre vision de la vie, les grands scientifiques altermondialistes, les ONG pouvaient se retrouver, parler, créer des alliances, et maintenant se donner des visions de lutte.


Donc c'est l'espace, c'est un espace quand même qui a fait vivre beaucoup d'organisations, qui a fait naître aussi d'autres organisations, c'est très très intéressant donc, et @3 qui a encouragé beaucoup les militants, dont je fais partie, à vraiment analyser, en partant de leur vécu et de ce qu'il a compris des forums, pour vraiment tracer une autre alternative de vie, qui colle avec une vie progressiste pour changer ce monde-là. 


Mais c'est un espace qui nous a cultivés sur les vraies causes du système capitaliste, que nous ignorons dans nos villages. Dans nos villages, on ignore complètement, on ne voit pas le système avec toutes ses couleurs, mais on ne voit que dans la vision des politiciens, et nous ne comprenons pas pourquoi tous ces problèmes, toutes ces aides qui sont faites ne viennent pas à nous jusqu'à la base 


Mais l'espace il faut les différents grands ateliers, les différents échanges, les discours des scientifiques nous ont permis de comprendre cette réalité. 

Donc ça nous a cultivés, @4 c'est un espace qui nous a cultivés, et qui nous a fait comprendre certaines réalités, que nous, en tant que militant vraiment on ne connaissait pas ça, parce que le système, le comportement, la manifestation du système capitaliste diffère d'un continent à un autre 


Parce que nous, nous sommes un continent où l’ancien maître nous a fait beaucoup de mal, on a été soumis à beaucoup d'atrocités, donc qui a fait que les gens sont psychologiquement résignés, et donc l'espace du forum, @5 le passage du forum social en Afrique, qui a permis à beaucoup d'Africains d'y participer, a beaucoup fait une tâche d'huile, et aujourd'hui cette relation qui est restée sur le plan national entre nous, sur le plan régional en Afrique de l'Ouest, sur le plan Afrique, vraiment a créé beaucoup de liens entre Suds, et aussi a créé beaucoup de lien entre les organisations du Sud que nous sommes, et les organisations du Nord. 


Donc maintenant, l'espace de ce forum a été vraiment un cas d'école, qui nous a beaucoup appuyé, dont nous nous sommes beaucoup inspirés, pour tirer beaucoup d'expérience, 

@6 Et aujourd'hui, nous vivons avec tous ces résultats en Afrique de l'Ouest, avec 16 pays ensemble au sein de la convergence globale pour la terre, l'eau et les semences paysannes.


Et même, à partir du mois d’octobre nous allons entamer notre troisième grande caravane,qui va parcourir encore cinq pays entre militants entre communauté entre activistes nous allons même faire une contre cop 26. @6B Tout ça toute cette expérience est sortie d'où? Elle Est sortie du passage de cet espace du Forum social mondial, qui vraiment nous a beaucoup cultivés dans notre lutte.


Ca, il faut que je le dise à l’entrée de mon intervention qui est très intéressant,

Et la vision maintenant dans un futur de luttes: nous comprenons, on est convaincus de ça, que c'est pas le système qui va nous servir, donc on ne va rien gagner dans le système capitaliste, soit nous nous soumettons au diktat du comportement du système capitaliste, ou c'est pas eux qui viennent nous aider, pour nous servir.


@7 Donc on a été convaincus entre militants qu'il faut une alternative. Mais bâtir cette alternative ne peut venir que de nous, donc on ne doit pas dire comme des religieux que tout vas venir de Dieu non, non, non ,ça ne peut venir que de nous-même, que de notre esprit de créativité, de notre engagement, de notre analyse politique, c'est ce qui va renforcer l'alternative aujourd'hui que nous voulons de cette vie.


@8 Mais, qu'est-ce qui va appuyer cette alternative? Cette alternative ne peut être appuyée que par le mouvement populaire, une grosse mobilisation populaire, cette mobilisation populaire doit aller de la base vers le sommet, c'est ça que nous on a compris. 


Vous avez vu tout ce qu'on a appris du forum et qui nous sommes aujourd'hui?.


On a appris du forum:  on a vu que nous sommes des communautés, que nous sommes des gens qui ont été élus par la base, et par des masses, nous avons engagé une politique, parce que nous avons compris qu' il faut que nous fassions notre propre alternative,@9 il faut qu’il y ait notre propre façon de gouvernance, qui peut coller à nos réalités, qui peut nous servir, mais qui doit être appuyée sur notre diversité culturelle.


Il faut que notre développement s'appuie sur notre diversité culturelle, cette tolérance à la diversité culturelle, c'est très important. Le système capitaliste est contre la diversité culturelle. Les lois du monde, le comportement du monde, ce que veut le monde, le monde n’est autre que eux, leur monde qui est le monde du système du capitalisme. 

@10 Raison pour laquelle nous, en Afrique de l'Ouest, nous avons commencé à dire qu'il faut que nous soyons forts dans notre propre pays, d’abord, parce que tu ne peux pas dire que tu changes la région tant que toi-même tu n'es pas fort dans ton propre pays.


Il faut qu'il y ait vraiment une grosse mobilisation, qui croit à une idée, qui ont les mêmes visions, qui ont les mêmes politiques de lutte. Donc c'est ce qu'on a dit, que c'est à chaque pays de faire des gros mouvements d'organisation. Donc c'est ce qu'on a fait dans les 16 pays : on a commencé à implanter des vrais mouvements communautaires, avec des visées progressistes, donc c'est ce mouvement populaire qui peut basculer la tendance à partir de pays . Tant qu’on contrôle la politique de nos pays, on peut ensemble contrôler la politique de la région, 


Mais tant qu'on est pas capables de peser dans la balance de la politique de nos pays, tant que nous-mêmes, on n'est pas connus dans les mouvements d'action, de changements dans notre propre pays, on ne peut pas parler de changement régional. 


Donc nous on a compris ça, donc chacun est engagé vraiment à avoir ce poids politique, à partir de son pays, et à partir du pays maintenant nous pouvons changer la région, et faire des propositions. 


L'exemple en a été quand on a pu nous implanter au Mali, c'est mon pays, on a pu changer notre Loi (foncière) , parce que nous nous battons pour la terre, l'eau, et les semences paysannes. Le droit à la terre, le droit à l'eau , le droit  aux semences. Donc ces droits se transforment en nouveaux droits qui ne sont pas dans les PIDES(?). Il faut qu'on parte à la conquête de nouveaux droits,@11 pour obtenir ces nouveaux droits, c'est la masse populaire qui est convaincue de ce qu’ils veulent, et qui  le revendique, et c'est ainsi qu'on a pu avoir une politique foncière au Mali, et avoir une loi foncière qui reconnaît nos us et coutumes, et donc on a un document de plaidoyer aujourd'hui pour l'Afrique de l'Ouest. 


Je suis en train de donner un exemple de stratégie de lutte, tu peux aller de bout en bout pour organiser un seul bloc, @12 donc un bloc n’est ensemble que par des bouts de choses 

donc ces bout de choses doivent être des groupes qui vont converger avec leurs luttes, leur vision, leur idéologie, pour rencontrer d'autres luttes.


Donc si le Sud arrive à se mettre comme ça, avec des vraies idées, des vraies visions, et aujourd'hui il y a la convergence globale des luttes, il y a la plate-forme “notre terre, notre vie” , @13 on a des gros mouvements aujourd’hui qui vraiment commencent à s'implanter réellement, et donc nous allons prendre l’angle et l'Alliance avec les autres du Nord, de l'Ouest, de l'Est.Et c'est comme ça qu'on peut venir au bout et dévier la vision du système capitaliste, 


Donc c'est d'abord ce que je voulais dire : partant du Forum, des leçons du forum, de l'éducation de lutte qu'on a eu du forum, et vraiment au passage, je salue le grand Gus Massiah il y a les Annies, et d'autres qui vraiment nous inspiraient dans la lutte, et aujourd'hui vraiment, nous sommes en train de changer quelque chose.


Il faut servir son temps, la génération doit servir son temps, pour servir son temps face au système, c'est pas la mort: on doit la côtoyer tous les jours, la prison: on le fait régulièrement, Mais c’est pour une cause, On ne fait pas la prison parce qu'on est allé faire un hold up, on est aller tuer ou voler quelqu’un, @14 on fait la prison parce qu'on a une vision idéologie, et que le système se dresse contre, parce que le système sait que notre vision, notre idéologie, peut bloquer l'avancée du système capitaliste. 


Donc c'est comme ça que nous sommes haïs par le système, et on en est fiers, parce que si on nous met en prison, c'est que ça veut dire qu’on les gêne. Il faut beaucoup beaucoup de gens qui les gênent pour qu'ils réfléchissent autrement et acceptent de nous écouter. 


Merci à tout le monde, j'ai pris un peu de temps. Vraiment c'était ce que je voulais donner et partager avec vous. Il faut avancer il ne faut rien lâcher, Il faut avancer il faut rien lâcher Merci 


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44mn

@ 005 Massa; Hello fellow activists. hello alter-globalist comrades

Let me introduce myself: my name is Massa Kone, I am from no vox in Africa http://www.no-vox.net/  so I am in charge of the NoVox Africa coordination. I am the spokesperson for the West African global convergence of struggles for land, water and  peasant seeds.https://africaconvergence.net/ 


I am a member of the international council of the World Social Forum via the no vox

I am very delighted today to speak with many convinced militant comrades whose names I see are there: our teachers of struggles, our benchmarks. It's very interesting, I am very happy to speak on another set of the World Social Forum.


@1 I would first like to talk a bit about the forum, and our understanding as a movement of grassroots community struggles, struggling for their survival. We are fighting for our survival, we are fighting because we have not had our place in the governance of the capitalist system. We fight to save our lives, to safeguard our property and for our sake.


And so people must understand it this way: therefore we are condemned to move forward with our struggle, because we do not agree with the system erected by the capitalist system, which their form of governance and development which does not serve us, but who serves the rich, the multinationals, and the politicians who serve them.


The World Social Forum, I participated in many sequences of the World Social Forum, in several sequences even (yes MIke I will speak softly, it is in my nature to speak quickly, we do not have too much time)@2  this space of the World Social Forum was a space where we cultivated our knowledge, we cultivated our knowledge, we exchanged our experiences, we also forged relationships.


The space of the World Social Forum was like for us, for the fight, a pilgrimage, a space of pilgrimage, where the social movements, the great visions, the great ideologues who have another vision of life, the great anti-globalization scientists, the NGOs could meet, talk, create alliances, and now have visions of struggle.


So it is the space, it is a space all the same which has given life to many organizations, which has also given birth to other organizations, it is very very interesting therefore, and @3 which encouraged many activists, of which I am a part, to really analyze, starting from their experiences and what they understood from the forums, to really trace another life alternative, which sticks with a progressive life to change that world.


But it is a space that has cultivated us on the real causes of the capitalist system, which we ignore in our villages. In our villages, we are completely ignorant, we do not see the system with all its colors, but we only see in the vision of politicians, and we do not understand why all these problems, all this aid that is being given does not come to us down to the base


But space requires the various large workshops, the various exchanges, the speeches of the scientists allowed us to understand this reality.

So it cultivated us,@4  it is a space which cultivated us, and which made us understand certain realities, that we, as an activist really we did not know that, because the system, the behavior, the manifestation of capitalist system differs from one continent to another


Because we are a continent where the former master has done us a lot of harm, we have been subjected to a lot of atrocities, so that made people psychologically resigned, and therefore the space of the forum, @5 the passage of the social forum in Africa, which allowed many Africans to participate, and this has spread, and today this relationship which has remained on the national level between us, on the regional level in West Africa, in terms of Africa, really created a lot of links between the Souths, and also created a lot of links between the organizations of the South that we are, and the organizations of the North.


So now, the space of this forum was really a textbook case, which supported us a lot, from which we drew a lot from, to draw a lot of experience,

@6 And today we are living with all these results in West Africa, with 16 countries together within the global convergence for land, water and peasant seeds.


And even, from October we are going to start our third big caravan, which will travel through another five countries between militants, between communities and between activists. We are even going to do a counter cop 26. @6B Where did all this experience come from? It Has come out of the passage of this space of the World Social Forum, which really cultivated us a lot in our struggle.


I have to say this at the start of my speech, which is very interesting,


And the vision now in a future of struggles: we understand, we are convinced of that, that it is not the system that will serve us, so we will not gain anything in the capitalist system, either we submit to the diktat of behavior of the capitalist system, or it is not they who come to help us, to serve us.


@7 So we were convinced among activists that we need an alternative. But building this alternative can only come from us, so we should not say like religious that everything will come from God no, no, no, it can only come from ourselves, from our spirit of creativity, from our commitment, our political analysis, it is what will strengthen the alternative today that we want from this life.


@8 But, who will support this alternative? This alternative can only be supported by the popular movement, a big popular mobilization, this popular mobilization must go from the base to the top, that's what we understood.


Have you seen everything we learned from the forum and who we are today ?.


We learned from the forum: we saw that we are communities, that we are people who were elected by the base, and by the masses, we have initiated a policy, because we understood that we must do our own alternative,@9  there must be our own way of governance, which can match our realities, which can serve us, but which must be based on our cultural diversity.


Our development must be based on our cultural diversity, this tolerance to cultural diversity is very important. The capitalist system is against cultural diversity. The laws of the world, the behavior of the world, what the world wants, the world is none other than them, their world which is the world of the system of capitalism.

@10 This is why we, in West Africa, started to say that we have to be strong in our own country, first of all, because you cannot say that you change the region as long as you are not strong in your own country.


There has to be a really big mobilization, which believes in an idea, which have the same visions, which have the same policies of struggle. So that's what we said, that it is up to each country to make major organizational movements. So that's what we did in the 16 countries: we started to establish real community movements, with progressive aims, so it is this popular movement that can change the trend from countries. As long as we control the politics of our countries, we can together control the politics of the region,


But as long as we are not able to weigh in the balance of the politics of our countries, as long as we ourselves are not known in the movements of action, of changes in our own country, we cannot talk about regional change.


So we understood that, so everyone is really committed to having this political weight, from their country, and from the country now we can change the region, and make proposals.


The example was when we were able to establish ourselves in Mali, it is my country, we were able to change our Law (land law), because we are fighting for land, water, and peasant seeds. The right to land, to water,  to seeds. So these rights are transformed into new rights which are not in the PIDES(?). We must set out to conquer new rights,@11 to obtain these new rights, it is the popular masses who are convinced of what they want , and that they are demanding, and this is how we were able to have a land policy in Mali, and have a land law that recognizes our habits and customs, and therefore we have an advocacy document today for West Africa.


I am giving an example of a struggle strategy, you can go from start to finish to organize a single block,@12  so a block is only together through various bits

so these bits of things must be groups that will converge with their struggles, their vision, their ideology, to meet other struggles.


So if the South manages to put itself like that, with real ideas, real visions, and today there is the global convergence of struggles, there is the platform “our land, our life”, @13 we have big movements today that really starts to really take hold, and so we are going to take the angle and the Alliance with the others from the North, the West, the East. come to the end and deviate the vision of the capitalist system,


So that is first of all what I wanted to say: starting from the Forum, the lessons of the forum, the education, the struggle that we had from the forum, and really on my way, I salute the great Gus Massiah there are the Annies, and others who really inspired us in wrestling, and today really, we're changing something.


We must serve our  time, the generation must serve its time, to serve its time in the face of the system, it's not death: we have to be around it every day, prison : we do it regularly, But it's for a cause , We do not go to prison because we went to hold a hold-up, we went to kill or steal someone, @14 we go to prison because we have an ideological vision, and the system stands up against it, because the system knows that our vision, our ideology, can block the advance of the capitalist system.


So that's how we are hated by the system, and we are proud of it, because if we are put in jail, it means that we are embarrassing them. It takes a lot of people to bother them so that they think differently and agree to listen to us.


Thanks to everyone, I took a little time. Really that was what I wanted to give and share with you. We must move forward, we must not let go, We must move forward, we must not let go Thank you





57mn

Mike: Thank you very much Kone. My French is very poor, there are some difficulties with interpretation. I would like to ask my colleague Pierre to give us a summary of Massa’s contribution Pierre are you able to ?


Pierre: I will summarise 

Massa la traduction ne marche pas je n’ai pas la traduction

Pierre ; Massa tu as le globe en bas là tu le vois pour l'interprétation puis tu appuies sur français

 oui 

Massa ; Oui j'étais sur le français j’écoutais mais après mon intervention, la traduction est partie

Pierre Je fais un résumé en anglais de ce que tu as dit


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@006 Pierre ; Massa said that the forum was a fantastic school of struggle, where involved movements and struggles, can get inspired and get experience from other groups. 

@1 So it is a very effective School and in that school, he said the main message was create your own alternative from below, use your own cultural diversity, make it from your conditions, your outset, your context, and proceed. So the message is very empowering, his group convergence of struggles for Land, water and ecology they followed this message, and they created first try to make a vivid struggle and correlation and forces in Mali, as he said you need to be strong on your own country, and then you can and go and propose things in the region, and Alliance circulation. 


So that is the experience he has, and he said “yes we need to serve our time”, this was the expression. And he said yes , sometime we go to prison if we're going to prison it is because the systems hates us and we are disturbing it , so it's an element of relevancy of what we do do, and that's the perspective he has : developing from below : strong struggles using regional Alliance, and using every way possible to build strength. And that is his advice for the other participants in the social forum.


@007 Mike : great thanks Pierre and thanks Massa for those insights. I think they're very true all our struggles of it to be grounded locally. Change is only meaningful when it occurs in the neighborhood, in barrios in communities. the critical thing is developing that mass of activists and pressure, so that we can in fact build an alternative world.


Right. perhaps Pierre, you'll be able to do the English to French interpretation for the next session while I will make my short intervention.

Pierre: you need to promote me from this participation to be an interpreter in that case, my other device is not working properly for some reason

Mike / that will also give Claudia a break, then you should have an invitation to the booth Now the one that says French. You are in the French Channel now, and you'll be able to translate.


1h 02 

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@00 8 Mike: OK. So my name is Mike Davies, I am a civilian , I am an activist and community organiser in Harare. From my experiences with the local struggle,@1  I realise the importance of internationalism, as a solidarity mechanism for us to strengthen our local struggles.


My engagement started after 2005, when we had an enormous eviction event, called operation Murambatsvina in Zimbabwe, which evicted 700000 Families, possibly 2 million people were evicted from their homes and businesses. And as the result of my international contacts, we were able to go to Nairobi, and on the sidelines we engaged with the executive director of UN habitat to examine the evictions. 


I have since participated in six social forums, and my experience has been many positive, but tinged with some frustrations. 


@2 As others have said, the mere convergence of thousands of activists is in itself a major achievement. It is an event of solidarity that rejuvenates our lives and our struggle with must always celebrate this reality, 

Whatever we feel about the forum, it is a phenomenal Gathering of altermondialistes that gather strengthen and sustains, so any analysis should take place in a positive view , critiques should contribute to a stronger social forum,


@3 Whatever we think about whether it is a space, or should be an actor, we must treasure and nurture the world social forum. While each social forum has its particular characteristics, many similarities remain. For me,it is the interaction among global activists.


@4  I have not yet been to a forum  that was truly global, and am hoping the next Forum in Mexico, being a hybrid event with a physical forum and a virtual online forum, will see the first really global participation in the forum. 


I come from a solidarity network which unites social movements and the neighborhood organisations in their struggles, and we have benefited through, either solidarity that comes 

I think my Southern African colleagues will support me, when I say one of our approach must be “an injury to one is an injury to all”. @5 This solidarity in the local struggles is so important, especially for us, in countries that have authoritarian governments, that don't give a damn about our local voices and life, but they do care about international opinion. So the mobilization of international solidarity is essential in our local struggles.


@6 The international links are also important because it helps us to overcome our Parochial views, because we tend to get locked in national perspectives, and these can limits us it's a device where the global elite keeps us in boxes called Zimbabwe or Tunisia or Senegal, and try to divide us and rule us , so global internationalism is a single strongest weapon we have to fight again capitalism.


The international Alliance of inhabitants has made full use of the world social forum since 2003. We have had several activities and events, solely enabled by the world social forum. We use it to mobilise of course, but also for Direct action, as happened in Dakar in 2011, where we were able to mobilize within two hours tens of demonstrators: we hired a bus and went to the Ghanean embassy to protest against eviction that were occuring in Ghana at that time. @7 So there is direct action that can emerge from the world social forum


However, I must make a few criticisms. One of the things that has struck me in many social forums is that people do not practice the principles. They do not act in an alternative world fashion, in a globalist fashion. 


@8 The lack of empathy and concern for others has been a feature in many of the forums, Basic incivility; remember in Dakar, apart from the chaotic organisation, many of the groups were very militant and confrontational, even to the extent of turning off people's public address systems, and disrupting their events.

We need to have a culture of respect and dignity for each other, before we can take act as a principle to the rest of the world. We need to practice what we preach, and develop the empathy and concern.


The second one is perhaps a bit more troublesome; we talk to ourselves, we are within a bubble of like-minded people, and while this is good and strengthens our resolve and invigorates us, we need to devise strategies to take the fight into the Halls of capitalism.

World social forum cannot do this.@9  It is not an actor, but the people and organisations under its umbrella  can certainly unite, and have a more direct action based approach, to disrupting the meetings of global capital, and to publicize that there is an alternative available for people to look at.


 I'm sure all of you will agree with me about @10 the inherent chaos of the social forum I think a lot of this has to do with structure in process of self-organization, and such, and I think it is something that we must embrace. 

However, possibly the IC ( international council WSF) should implement a permanent organising commission, which can run all the time and keep things ticking along between the world social forums. 


@11I think it must be a process, not a series of events, and I'm glad to be part of the vigorous debate and dialogue that is going on within the IC at this moment, and I encourage people to participate within that dialogue, to make their voices heard. 


And then, finally, one of my concerns is questions about the decision-making process within the IC. @12 Who is IC? Do we have equity Geographically across language, gender, age and other parameters. I think the IC needs to do self analysis, to see that we have good spread and good representation. Through no fault of their own, the current IC is dominated by both Spanish and South American comrades, and while their work is recognised, for it to be good to be a global organisation, it must ensure representation from other continents and areas, as well as get younger people to participate.


@13 I think our generation of activists is getting quite old now, and we need to consciously get the youth involved within the future word social forums.


Then finally, a vision; it is a critical space, the world social forum. It provides us an arena to reinforce our efforts, but we need to @14 engage more vigorously to come to counter the dominant narrative of neoliberal capitalism in the world, we need to develop strategies that will have direct impact.


Many people do not know about the world social forum. They know about the G8 and IMF and all these other gatherings. @15 We need to make our presence known, in areas that do not engage in social activism, so expansion. 

And then finally while the world social forum is not an entity that can speak on our behalf,@16  we can speak as comrades, as networks of organisations, but we can include the world social forum banner, just as a way of conscientizing people that the world social forum exists, and can provide a space for these dialogues. Thank you very much.


Mike raps Pierre you can do a recap into French if that is possible?OK


1h13

Massa: Nous avons la traduction, moi je suis en train de suivre Pierre pour écouter tout ce que Mike dit. J'entends parfaitement ta traduction Pierre

Mike : our next speaker, Sophie, is not here yet so I would like to offer the floor to Victor from DRC, who will be talking in french. Victor the floor is yours. Could you turn your video on? Where are you gone? We lost Victor. ok yeah Pierre I think he has dropped off. Could you try and get him back on?

Meena min there's some problem mike we can't hear you

1h15mn

Mike: if anybody has a brief comment, Meena? 

Meena We couldn't hear you before. 

Mike Sorry I was on the wrong channel , I was saying while we are waiting for Victor to rejoin us, are there any comments or questions that have been raised by the three contributions so far?

Meena Mike the translator was saying that she couldn't hear.

Mike she should be up to hear me now I was listening on the French channel

Massa: Maintenant, c'est bien, on entend la traduction. Mike c'est un peu la discussion qui commence ou je veux comprendre, parce que j'ai une réaction à faire, mais j'attends.

1h17 

Mike: I'm waiting for the translation yes 

Meena : i have a suggestion : why don’t you go to the next speaker?

Mike ; our two speakers are sophie and victor, Pierre can try to get hold of them to contribute

If colleagues have any written presentation , and they can produce in the chat that will be helpful. We will provide a good transcript of the entire dialogue today in due course.


FC6-micro50.png@008B Victor could not get back in the zoom room, and he sent a text contribution that is visible here   -   Victor n'a pas pu revenir dans la salle de zoom, et il a envoyé une contribution textuelle qui est visible ici  http://openfsm.net/projects/forum-connect/forum-connect-session6-preparation/#victor

1h18 

@009 Mike : ok, let's move on with the discussion. I would like to open the floor to all participants now to provide some responses and contribution to the debate. 

We do have Rosie here, and fortunately the language here. Pierre would you do a Spanish translation for .

Rosa; Hi Mike 

Mike; hi Rosie could you give a brief contribution about the current state of development from Mexico 2022? 


 FC6-micro50.png

@010 Rosa: Pues puedo hablar en español. Voy a prender mi cámara. Buenos días, buenos días muchas gracias. Aquí estoy escuchando les en francés y en inglés. Comprendo algo, no totalmente pero soy Roses Zuniga de México, ( de ceaal  https://join.wsf2021.net/organizations/1302del grupo facilitador del Foro Social Mundial en México, rumbo al 2022, y también soy parte del Consejo Internacional del Foro Social Mundial. Decirles que estamos preparándonos para construir este proceso. Permitame tantito


1h21

Rosa: Si les decía que estamos construyendo el proceso, para preparar las condiciones de hacer la articulación con los diferentes países del mundo, y por un lado estamos cumpliendo los objetivos del foro, y pensando en construir esta movilización continental.

@1 Bueno, sobre todo pensar en qué ejes van a ser los que vamos a trabajar de manera articulada, desde los movimientos, las mujeres, a retomar los elementos que trabajamos en el Foro Social Mundial virtual,https://wsf2021.net/espacios-tematicos/  y también pensar en las posibilidades de conexión, sobre todo en el sentido de decir cómo generamos procesos de diálogos, de aquí al Foro Social Mundial presencial.  


@2 Con Quienes hemos conversado nos han preguntado si es posible hacerlo de manera híbrida. Por ahí algunas ideas que sobre todo Pierre ha desarrollado, de cómo hacemos esta construcción híbrida con conexión virtual previa, pero eso no lo hemos acabado de definir, en términos de cómo sería, cuál sería el formato.(insumo pierre http://openfsm.net/projects/pfsm22/pfsm22-insumo6 )


Pero bueno, si queremos que hay una marcha, que si hay que hayan actividades autogestionadas, y sobre todo que nos movilicemos a nivel de continentes, de cómo nos movilizamos, y @3 cómo nos articulamos, no para hasta que llegue el evento, sino desde antes; se empezo a hacer intercambio de experiencia. 


De hecho Kinchi y Margaret de China estuvieron en octavo Foro sur sur de sostenibilidad, en el que articulamos diferentes experiencias desde los pueblos, para pensar estrategias juntas y creo que es este lo más importante : articular las experiencia de los pueblos, para pensar juntos, y bueno @4 creo que estamos con el compromiso de movilizarnos entre todas y todos rumbo a esta construcción en movilización global para visibilizar las luchas


No sé Mike si por ahí podría presentar y.o creo que decirles que algunos elementos que estamos pensando que el Foro Social Mundial presencial, sea para el primero de mayo, @5 no estamos todavía seguros si vamos a iniciar con una marcha ese día, y si vamos a y después hacer las actividades, las tradicionales, que se han hecho con la marcha, de actividades autogestionades, grandes conferencias, y encuentros, y también se tiene al final, como la construcción de una agenda colectiva, y compartir las diferentes actividades/iniciativas  a partir del Agora de futuros, decir como seguimos conectados. (ejemplo del foro social virtual https://wsf2021.net/programa-evento/ )


@6 Pero creo que está Ágora de futuros no se tiene que esperar a construir hasta el final, sino desde ahora las podemos empezar a construir,  con que estamos haciendo los territorios concretamente, (ejemplo de foro social virtual https://join.wsf2021.net/agora)


Y sobre todo una cosa que también vamos a trabajar es eso de la definición de los objetivos ( ver el borrador al 4 de septiembre  http://openfsm.net/projects/pfsm22/pfsm22-reunion-7agos21-objetivos)  y para que encontrarnos en este Foro Social Mundial. Por supuesto, como ustedes lo han dicho, para construir otros mundos posibles, pero también para visibilizar las luchas de los pueblos. Bueno yo dejaría por aquí mi comentario. No sé si hay preguntas para compartir.

 

 

FC6-micro50.png

@010 Rosa: If I was telling you that we are building the process, to prepare the conditions to make the articulation with the different countries of the world, and on the one hand we are fulfilling the objectives of the forum, and thinking of building this continental mobilization.

@1 Well, above all to think about which axes are going to be the ones that we are going to work in an articulated way, from the movements, the women, to retake the elements that we worked in the virtual World Social Forum, https://wsf2021.net/espacios-tematicos/  and also to think about the possibilities of connection, about all in the sense of saying how we generate dialogue processes, from here to the face-to-face World Social Forum.

 

@ 010 Rosa: Well, I can speak in Spanish. I'm going to turn on my camera. Good morning, good morning, thank you very much. Here I am listening to you in French and English. I understand something, not totally but I am Rosa Zuniga from Mexico,( from ceaal https://join.wsf2021.net/organizations/1302 )  and the facilitating group of the World Social Forum in Mexico, heading to 2022, and I am also part of the International Council of the World Social Forum. Telling you  that we are preparing to build this process. Hold on a second.


Mike the translation was coming from the french channel not hearing you You are in the English Channel . Correct@2 Those of us who have spoken have asked us if it is possible to do it in a hybrid wayT. There are some ideas that especially Pierre has developed, of how we do this hybrid construction with a previous virtual connection, but that we have not finished defining, in terms of what it would be like, what the format would be. (input by pierre http://openfsm.net/projects/pfsm22/pfsm22-insumo6-en)


But hey, if we want there to be a march, that if there are self-managed activities, and above all that we mobilize at the level of continents,@3 how we mobilize, and how we articulate, not until the event arrives, but before ( xxx) and  begin to exchange experiences.


In fact, Kinchi and Margaret from China were in the eighth South South Sustainability Forum, in which we articulated different experiences from the peoples, to think strategies together and I think this is the most important thing: articulate the experiences of the peoples, to think together, Well,@4 I believe that we are committed to mobilizing among all of us towards this construction in global mobilization to make the struggles visible.


I don't know, Mike, if I could present out there, I think I would tell you that some elements that we are thinking that the face-to-face World Social Forum will be for the first of May, @5 we are still not sure if we are going to start with a march that day, and if we are going to then do the activities, the traditional ones, that have been done with the march, self-managed activities, large conferences, and meetings, and also have at the end, such as the construction of a collective agenda, and share the different activities from the Agora of futures, say how we remain connected. ( example of virtual social forum  https://wsf2021.net/programa-evento/ )


@6 But I think that there is Agora for the future, you do not have to wait to build until the end, but from now on we can start to build them, with we are doing the territories specifically,(example of virtual social forum https://join.wsf2021.net/agora)


And above all, @7 one thing that we are also going to work on is that of defining the objectives( of the facilitating group)  (see current stage of drafting  early september here http://openfsm.net/projects/pfsm22/pfsm22-reunion-7agos21-objetivos )  and why we meet at this World Social Forum. Of course, as you have said, to build other possible worlds, but also to make visible the struggles of the peoples. Well I would leave my comment here. I don't know if there are questions to share.



1h25 

@011 Mike ;Thank you Rosie for that. So there is a process that is going on, which the people can join and participate in. @1 Are there organising groups ( commissions) forming yet eg around communication and such, or is it too early in the day for those working groups?

(see information on commissions here ;http://openfsm.net/projects/pfsm22/pfsm22-reunion-7agos21-comisiones


Massa: je m'excuse mais je n'ai pas la traduction du tout depuis que la dame du mexique parle en espagnol, je n'ai pas la traduction 

Mike : Pierre  can you summarise in French For Massa is it possible?

Massa: Pierre on t'entend pas du tout

Mike You are in the french channel you are in the English Channel Claudia 

ok we have problem with the interpretation because we don't have Spanish to French or English,except by relay Pierre are you doing Spanish to French and Spanish to English

Meena there is some confusion Mike.

Mike we can only hear Pierre the French channel we can't hear you unless we switch source to transfer

Kinchi Pierre was asked to do the translation of rosy into french so he is doing this now 

so wait for a few seconds. Claudia there is no need to interpret

Kinchin it's OK because just now for the English we managed, we heard the interpreting

Massa: Ce n'est pas ok parce qu'il n'y a pas de traduction en français 

ça ne marche pas 

Mike Massa you need to go into the French channel

1h29 

Massa c’est parfait je l'entends maintenant


Mike; Right Ok so my questions for Rosie would be: are there working groups available for people to participate in , and @2 how would people participate in general dialogues that are taking place in the IC? Perhaps an explanation of that would be useful.

Rosie?


Pierre we can't hear you, because you are in interpreting, so we cannot hear you in the main room, you'll have to switch off interpretation to be heard in the main room

1h30 

oh technology!

Rosa: I'm sorry Mike there is a question for me?

1h32 

Gus : could I speak Mike please? 

Massa: Qu'est-ce qui se passe? on n’entend rien, c'est le silence total. Bonjour Gus

Gus; Massa

Massa je suis très content de vous voir

Gus ,moi aussi mon cher, je ne te vois pas je ne vois que ton nom, 

Massa ah ça y est je suis là! 

Gus: Could I speak Mike ?


Mike Gus could use gives your vision on the discussion and perspective on the current process

Gus yes I will doing in in French then in English

Meena which language is gus speaking 

Gus English and French 

Meena so i switch off translation


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@012 Gus I think that in order  to prepare for the forum of Mexico ,from Africa @1 we could make the proposal to have four meetings from four regions of Africa. 

-One in North Africa including Egypt, it could be Maghreb MaShrek on your Africa 

-the second one could be Western and centre Africa, because Nigeria is part of the two, 

-the third one could be Souther Africa, and the fourth Eastern Africa. 

And so if we can find for each region one or two people

(je continue en anglais puis je le fais en francais apres) 

@2 For each region, we can find 1 people or 2, who could prepare a paper on what are the strategies of the social movements of the region, to answer to the crisis of neoliberalism, the crisis of sanitation of pandemia, and the crisis of ecology, and @3 to propose this discussion in a meeting from Africa, to prepare the world social forum of Mexico.

 I could now give it in French


1h36mn 

@013 Gus Ma proposition c'est que pour préparer Le forum social mondial de Mexico,@1 si nous pouvions organiser pour l'Afrique 4 rencontres: 

- une rencontre qui serait une rencontre pour l'Afrique du Nord, mais qui pourrait être aussi Maghreb-Machrek, 

-une rencontre pour l'Afrique de l'Ouest et centrale, parce que le Nigéria fait partie des deux, -une rencontre pour l'Afrique australe, une rencontre pour l'Afrique de l'Est.


Et si nous pouvons trouver pour chacune de ces régions une ou deux personnes. Par exemple pour l'Afrique de l'Ouest et centrale, je pense, Massa, que la caravane pourrait le faire, @2 pour rédiger un papier sur “quelles sont les stratégies des mouvements sociaux de la région pour répondre à la triple crise”, la crise du néolibéralisme et des inégalités, la crise sanitaire et de la pandémie, et la crise écologique,@3  et d'avoir une rencontre des mouvements sociaux africains sur la base de ces quatre rapports, pour préparer la participation de l'Afrique à Mexico. Merci


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@014 Mike : Thank you Gus. I think that gives us a very clear path for the process to continue, as we have seen in Asia : a series of events of discussion organised by ForumConnect have led to the development of a mobilization group for world social forum a next year, as well as it working group of people who are more prepared to actually do things, rather than just being informed about the process and developments. 


Hopefully, out of this meeting, we can agree to develop that sort of structure where we have activist in the four regions mentioned by Gus, who can spearhead and mobilize for a strong African voice in Mexico in 2022, whether it's physical voice, or within the hybrid virtual world that we've become so used to.


Certainly on my part, @1 I'm more than willing to work with my colleagues in southern Africa, to develop a coherent united voice for the world social forum. Possibly my colleagues here from Mali and DRC will also be able to do the same. 

That would be a very tangible outcome of today's meeting, of we could get to that agreement


1h39mn

Mike we are waiting for Victor to join us. Pierre I don't know if you have updates from Victor I can only hear you through the English Channel . ok we have having problem in reconnecting with Victor and another speaker Sophie hasn't been able to join us yes

Massa would you like to speak? I see your hand is up.


1h40mn

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@015 Massa: Oui j'ai levé ma main pour ça. Je ne comprends pas la technologie et tous ces problèmes qui ne sont pas les nôtres. Il faut qu'on trouve une solution. 

J'aimerais intervenir sur deux points. 


Le premier point. D'abord sur l'organisation du Forum social mondial. Sur l'organisation moi jaimerais quand même qu'on comprenne que il n'y a pas de grand espace comme le Forum social'. Il ne peut pas y avoir une organisation parfaite ……….. ce n'est pas possible, ce forum c'est la commodité, mais la participation surtout sur la participation de qualité


Donc c'est ça que le forum doit tenir compte @1 quand on a fait un forum social mondial, il faut que les participants soient de qualité, que ça ne soit pas un forum social des bourgeois, de grandes entreprises, et que le forum sur un lieu de foire de multinationales, que nous sommes en train de combattre.


Ca il faut mettre l'accent là-dessus ; le Forum social mondial est un espace d'échanges des gens de qualité, qui sont dans le besoin, qui veulent avoir une autre alternative à la vie du système, au fonctionnement du système capitaliste, pour le bien-être, le vivre ensemble, l'autosuffisance alimentaire, la liberté d'expression, la liberté d'action donc.


Mais ça ce n'est pas un truc de firmes internationales, de multinationales qui viennent faire des Expositions partout, qui viennent faire de grandes pub partout. C'est les grands journalistes de grande international qui sont du côté du système capitaliste qui viennent faire leur saga.


Moi j'aimerais bien qu'on tienne compte de ça dans l'organisation du Forum social mondial. Ca c'est très important, c'est un élément qui est très important, qu'il faut vraiment qu'on en tiennent beaucoup compte. 


Le secundo; je suis parfaitement d'accord avec Gus de sa proposition qui n'est pas la première proposition, ce n'est pas la première proposition Gus revient chaque fois sur la même chose. 


Oui pour pouvoir avoir la voix des communautés les plus reculés les villages et des amoureux qui sont dans les confins de la planète.@2  Il faut décentraliser, et commencer les activités du Forum social des grosses rencontres sur le plan local. 

(consultez ici les recommandations de Forum Connect pour utiliser la plateforme join wsf http://openfsm.net/projects/forum-connect/forum-connect-info-about-joinwsf)



@3 Diviser les continents et avoir la voix des communautés et ces voix des citoyens des peuples qui vont remonter à un niveau et le niveau vont les remonter au sommet Forum social mondial,  et là nous aurons un vrai Forum social mondial.


Sinon, nous allons avoir un forum social mondial pour les gens qui ont les moyens de prendre des billets d'avion, pour des ONG qui ont les moyens de se payer les billets, et d'autres qui vont en touristes Mais ils vont aller parler au nom du monde? ce n'est pas juste, c'est pas du tout juste.


@4 Il faut qu'on organise le forum il faut voir les grands courants d'organisation mobilisateurs qui font des actions régionales et s'appuyer sur ces organisations. Le forum en lui même ne peut pas créer notre espace.


Ca a été l'erreur du Forum social. L'erreur a été qu'il faut créer le forum africain, il faut le forum malien,@5 il faut créer tatata le forum avec ses démembrements. C'était une erreur : le forum est un espace. Il doit garder cet espace, mais qui s'appuie sur les grands courants mobilisateurs, alternatifs, communautaires, citoyens qui se battent pour les droits humains, et maintenant remonter la voix de ces gens, et la grande rencontre, c’est cet espace mondial, pour porter la voix des gens.


Donc maintenant c'est ce qu'il faut en tenir compte. Nous avons toujours critiqué la forme. et de deux On a parlé de la jeunesse. le problème de la jeunesse. Cédez et rajeunissez le forum est un débat. 


1h45mn

@6 La génération qui a créé le forum ne veut pas lâcher. Il faut dire la vérité. Ils ne veulent pas lâcher. C'est ce qui montre la limite de notre vision de l'espace qu’on a mis en place. On peut être à l'origine de quelque chose, mais si on veut le faire pour le futur, on doit se dire” je fais partie des gens qui ont fait cet espace, mais je dois, je l'ai fait pour le monde, pour la vie toute entière, pour des centaines d'années, pour des vingtaine d'années, pour que d'autres puissent profiter de cet espace, pour changer le monde”.


Nous allons commencer un combat et ce n'est pas nous qui gagnerons ce combat, même si on est jeunes, nos parents nous, nous sommes dans ce combat. c’est de l’utopie de dire que “J'ai commencé un combat et il faut que je mange tous les fruits de mon combat ,et tout de suite”. C'est un processus : je marquerai mon temps, et je servirai mon temps, et d'autres qui vont me précéder/suivre vont servir leur temps, et c'est comme ça que le changement peut venir.


C'est la roue. Mais c'est ce qu'on doit mettre dans notre tête, oui il y a des initiatives du Forum social mondial oui les latino-américain sont là, mais il faut qu'ils comprennent; mais ils ont gagné le processus, @7 ceux qui ont engagé le processus doivent accepter que c'est un processus. Ils ont servi leur temps, ils doivent laisser la place à d'autres pour continuer, c'est ce qui fait qu'on peut perdurer le forum dans le temps, et pour avoir des vraies réussites du forum dans l'histoire.


Donc maintenant c'est le deuxième point . Je voulais le dire. Sur ces deux points, je voulais vraiment tenir compte de ce que dit Gus qui est très important, pour avoir la vraie voix des communautés, des peuples en lutte, et deuxièmement vraiment tenir compte de la qualité de la participation de ceux qui viennent à la participation de l 'espace de Forum social mondial. vraiment c'est très important. Merci 


1h40mn

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@ 015 Massa: Yes I raised my hand for that. I do not understand the technology and all these problems that are not ours. We have to find a solution.

I would like to speak on two points.


The first point. First on the organization of the World Social Forum. Regarding the organization, I would still like people to understand that there is no large space like the Social Forum. There cannot be a perfect organization ……… .. it is not possible, this forum is the convenience, but the participation especially on the quality participation


So this is what the forum must take into account @1 when we set up a world social forum, the participants must be of quality, that it is not a social forum of the bourgeoisie, of large companies, and that the forum on a fairground of multinationals, which we are fighting.


That should be emphasized; The World Social Forum is a space for exchanges of quality people, who are in need, who want to have another alternative to the life of the system, to the functioning of the capitalist system, for well-being, living together, self-sufficiency in food, freedom of expression, freedom of action therefore.


But that's not something about international firms, multinationals who come to do Exhibitions everywhere, who come to make big advertisements everywhere. It is the big international journalists who are on the side of the capitalist system who come to make their saga.


I would like this to be taken into account in the organization of the World Social Forum. This is very important, it is an element which is very important, that we really have to take it into account a lot.


The second; I completely agree with Gus on his proposition which is not the first proposal, it is not the first proposal Gus comes back to the same thing each time.


Yes to be able to have the voice of the most remote communities, the villages and of the lovers who are in the confines of the planet. @2 We must decentralize, and start the activities of the Social Forum of big meetings at the local level. 

(check here recomendations of Forumconnect to use the join wsf platform http://openfsm.net/projects/forum-connect/forum-connect-info-about-joinwsf)


@3 Divide the continents and have the voice of the communities and these voices of the citizens of the peoples who will rise to a level; and the level will raise them to the top World Social Forum and there we will have a real World Social Forum.


Otherwise, we are going to have a world social forum for people who can afford to take plane tickets, for NGOs who can afford the tickets, and others who go as tourists. But they are going to go and speak on behalf of the world? it is not fair, it is not at all fair.


@4 We have to organize the forum, we have to see the major mobilizing organizational currents that carry out regional actions and rely on these organizations. The forum in itself cannot create our space.


It was the Social Forum's mistake. The mistake was that we must create the African forum, we need the Malian forum,@5  we must create tatata the forum with its branches. It was a mistake: the forum is a space. It must keep this space, but which is based on the great mobilizing, alternative, community currents, citizens who fight for human rights, and now raise the voice of these people, and the great meeting is this global space , to carry people's voices.


So now that's what to take into account. We have always criticized the format. and number two We have spoken of youth. the problem of youth. “Give in and rejuvenate the forum” is a debate.


1h45mn

@6 The generation that created the forum does not want to give up. The truth must be said. They don't want to let go. This shows the limit of our vision of the space that we have set up. We can be at the origin of something, but if we want to do it for the future, we have to say to ourselves ”I am one of the people who made this space, but I must, I did it for the world, for the whole of life, for hundreds of years, for twenty years, so that others can take advantage of this space, to change the world ”.


We are going to start a fight and it is not us who will win this fight, even if we are young, our parents us, we are in this fight. It is utopia to say that "I have started a fight and I must eat all the fruits of my fight, and now". It's a process: I'll mark my time, and I'll serve my time, and others who are going to come before/after  me / are going to serve their time, and that's how change can come.


It is the wheel. But that's what we have to put in our heads, yes there are initiatives of the World Social Forum yes the Latin Americans are there, but they have to understand; but they have won the process, @7 those who initiate the process must accept that it is a process. They have served their time, they must leave room for others to continue, which is what makes the forum possible over time, and to have the forum's real successes in history.


So now this is the second point. I wanted to say it. On these two points, I really wanted to take into account what Gus said which is very important, to have the real voice of the communities, of the peoples in struggle, and secondly to really take into account the quality of the participation of those who come to the participation of the World Social Forum space. really this is very important. Thank you



1h47

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@016 Mike : Thanks Massa I think it is a very important point to avoid the capture of the process by NGOs, or compromised activists @1.You raised a very important point earlier, about the co-option of our comrades and activists, within a neoliberalist donor paradigm, and this is something we are to be very careful of. 

Many of our comrades in Africa, are perhaps motivated more by bread and butter issues more than by greater concern. The “Politics of the stomach”, as we know it in Africa, is a very strong force against genuine activism. 

So I think a veting process is important as we develop this momentum and we get organisations joining us. 


Pierre, I will add you now as a participant. Thank you for your work interpreting, and I will offer the floor to Pierre to make some observations.


1h49 

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@017 Pierre: Hello I just wanted to comment on the proposal of Gus, and to say that we are building in ForumConnect, we have our own work of creating spaces to say “how and why participate in WSF”. 

So We see how this can fit with the proposals of Gus, we need to think about it. @1 We are going on, there will be another ForumConnect meeting about Africa, more about  the facilitation perspective, and we'll set up some groups that are already existing “why and how participating in the social forum, That is ongoing. 

@2 What Gus is talking about could be  more something coming from the mobilisation initiatives from the IC and we have to understand exactly whos is going to do what

as far as ForumConnect goes we are develop this awareness that there is a forum in Mexico, and that people are welcome to learn how to participate from now on, and this is a very important step. 

@3 So I will only advise people to make their organisation visible in the joint platform, which is this link https://join.wsf2021.net/?q=user/register  , which helps you after creating a personal account, making your organisation visible.

. So this will give you up to coming weeks, this is concrete, you can make your organisation visible, you can make activities visible, you can make initiatives of action visible. This is like a build up towards Mexico.


@018 Pierre Un peu de français je disais que par rapport à ce que Gus a proposé , Je voulais simplement dit que dans l'équipe ForumConnect on a une deuxième réunion qui est prévue pour plutôt les facilitateurs de forum sociaux en afrique aussi, et qu'on crée des espaces où les plateforme qui est ici https://join.wsf2021.net/?q=user/register  de se montrer, de montrer leur intérêt dès maintenant, pour montrer leur présence dans le processus du forum.


1h52mns 

@019 Mike Thanks Pierre this is a start of a process and it will continue. We will continue to organise into the various dialogues on Whatsapp Telegram and other platforms . Meena would you like to contribute?


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@020 Meena ; yes please thank you Mike. No I just wanted to say that it's been an interesting time  @1 ForumConnected is a very humble based small initiative, with the main thing trying to be a catalyst for larger wider process, not to lead it, but to facilitate it, to be a catalyst in order to start things off, and it has and I want to share it better Asia process we're calling it “asia mobilizing Towards WSF 2022 in Mexico” it is a very long name, it is a longer name than there are people, but slowly now it's building, and people are coming in 

 So what is happening now in Asia is that some countrywise, people are coming back, to see what they can do in different countries, and we are quite hopeful that this will take off. 


@2 Africa has played a very important role, it's a very important part, if Asia and Africa are not part of the forum, then the forum makes no sense, it's not a world social forum, there's not a point of having t forum.


So we have to see what ,if it is to happen, if we believe that it can still be used for if we believe it is a brand that has been created, that is giving fuel to give us a space to do more , a space to get together the space to build unity , solidarities struggles; to learn from each other; to conduct dialogues between sectors, between different ideological positions

This is what the forum can mean, and if it doesn't mean that , am sure none of us will really be interested in giving much time and energy to this.


Today with the rise of the right-wing all over the world, more and more, @3 it becomes important for us to come together, to talk to each other, to accept our differences, to go beyond those differences, to work together along with our differences. I think that is what we, those of us who have started this small initiative, that is what we believe in. I hope that this will also grow like the asia process is growing. I hope that this will also grow


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@021 Mike : Thank you for the words of encouragement, Meena. I think I wish there are a few of us in Africa anyways with a similar vision and the desire to expand the representation @1 I think the next step is doing direct approaches to people within existing national social forums, like the Zambian social forum, of the Southern African social forum, to see what capacity they have to engage in the process. 


We don't want to step on people's toes, if they are already running things, but from a brief survey done in the last week, there is very little happening amongst African social forums at the moment.


So it will try and work with them to develop a process, and to enlarge the voice. Anybody wishes to join in this, please contact me, and will develop proposals for the coming month August and September, for mobilizing and then they would propose to have a similar meeting September when we're able to mobilise more leaders, and perhaps victor and Sophie from Kenya would be able to contribute to that process.


Pierre : we hope that Sophie comes in the next two three minutes. There is hope she will be joining. 


1h57 

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@022 Mike ;OK we are nearly at the end of our time, but I'm sure if she join us in the next few minutes we would like to get the perspective from East Africa.


So I would like to thank everybody that contributed so far. I think it has been quite photar(?) It is a difficult subject to come together with, but I think if we have the unifying vision of an alternative world, this provides an ideological framework , in which we can suspend some of our internal differences.


@1 There is a problem in Africa of Gatekeepers who have co-opted our voices, and because they are funded by international donors, they tend to excess and talk on our behalf on the national platforms, So it's important to develop the counter narrative that emanates from the grassroots, from community groups, from social movements, I am hoping that next time we will be able to get involvement of Abehslali who are the foremost social movement in South Africa and have an amazing experience, and have been our guest at the world social forum, am sure many of you are familiar with them.


@2 There are many groups that we can reach out to. What I would suggest is that we form an “Africa towards world social forum group”, and will do that ,and share the link with people, but there is also as Pierre mentioned, the need to register at the word social organisation as a participant and linking to that Pierre as well. I have shared both links in the chat.

 

Any news from Sophie? Pierre?

Pierre I had her on the phone. She said she was connecting before 5-minutes, that's all I can say.

Mike here she is , so now she is promoted to panelist and we wrap up with a contribution from sophie.


2h00 

Mike Wellcome Sophie dollar from Kenya


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@023 Sophie: Thank you, thank you very much, and I must start by really apologising. This has been a terrible week and children are going back to school and running around and the internet is down, but I'm really happy that I could make it, even though at the very last minute. I'm so glad to be parte to this. I was sorry once again.


Mike: We are glad to have you with us Sophie. We hope to make the video available in the days to come, And I hope you will be able to catch up with very dynamic presentations from comrades in South Africa, Zimbabwe and Mali. If you would like, I can give you 7 minutes to introduce yourself and make your contribution around today's meeting. Over to you.


2h01mn

@024 Sophie I'm still trying to get to a better place where you can see me and hear me properly ok !


So, my name is Sophie Dowllar from Kenya, and am with the world march of women, which is international feminist movement, and some of us have worked to with world march of women I work with am a feminist, i am a grassroots mobiliser; am an artist, and I do a lot of art for social transformation, and we do a lot of community theatre.


i also help around, with helping people to see life, how life is, and we believe a lot that change starts with us, and beginning to true change is actually from ourselves.


 I want to say that, rationally, I very much appreciate the word social forum space, because tracing back our roots to 2007, when there was a second World social forum interaction, I went and joint in 2007 that's where the march of women was born, and so and for us the world social forum is a very important space, where we met a lot of social movements, it is a place where people have ideologies that connect, where people understand each other, where I've never seen a group of diverse number of people, so many people coming in together, all with the same, all very progressive, and we first saw that at the world social forum, and I think that this has inspired us a lot, and the reason we were able to be part of the forum, and also with the depart of the world march of women at that forum.


So one of the things @1 I really want to say is that the world social forum space is a space, I think we can continue mobilising around, it is very important, because it is only in such spaces that we can get such allies and political partners, and serious political partners, when I speak about political partners I know sometimes right now we are living in very critical times, with very many political issues, and critical problem in countries, and so much is happening.


@2 By when I talk about a place where we have progressive springing their minds together, and thus strategically thinking about the political solution to political problems, then I think that space is the world social forum space, which needs to be defended a lot

One of the challenges that I think we need to have as Africa especially, is that even looking at the world march of women, which is our international space, where we meet a lot of progressive and we also meet a lot with our allies, one of the thing that I have not seen happening in Africa, is that connection. 

I have seen a lot of progressive organisations and social movement connecting Around the World.


@3 in Africa we need to connect you know like kenyan social movement, connecting quickly with a South African social movements, and bringing that continental, regional Voice, where right now we know that most of our challenges are so similar, and we can talk about and we ook at our critical situation how they are, and bring it that international level where we can meet with international social movement everywhere from the others regions. 

2h06

So for me i think it is a space that still needs to be defended a lot, and we need to do a lot of mobilization in terms of sensitizing and talking more about what social forum space has done in the past.


@4 I remember when I went to the polycentric world social forum that was in Mali in 2006. It was an awesome space, it was an other eye-opener, where we thought initially, initially we thought that for social movement to read, because that it was a story out there, that for you to be in such a space, you feel that you belong people had to come from a different class of people, but come to think of it and come to think of the space.

 I think the space we saw in Mali changed your mind a lot, about what people, about the perception, that people have about the forum space

 So for me, when I think I really need to do is to continue a lot with the grassroots mobilization, especially of young people……. 


@5 Also the young people never experienced these spaces but I'm happy because a lot of them are now embracing there's a lot of embracing of social spaces. I see a lot of young Kenyan comrades organising everyday under the banners of the social justice centres, and people coming up and do the thinking they could be highly benefit from, if they were to join, if they were to be part of a space like the world social forum space.


So for me, I think there is so much that is going on in Africa, there's so much that's going on in the world, right now we are dealing with so much we looking at issues of transnational corporations ,and all that's what happening all the maximum profit from Maximum exploitation happening around, @6 if we can all bring our minds together, and start to bring the social forum deep down to where we are, in the little spaces where we are, then I think I've continue, and I think I want to challenge our African sisters and brothers, and comrades who are part of this, that we need to rethink our strategy


We need to think of a strategy and start our serious mobilization . Let's start connecting. like seriously we start connecting, and building, @7 from where we are, just the way we started our movements where we are, feeling like Part and parcel of right now, we need fto be eeling as connecting and embracing the social forum space. .


I do hope I didn't take too long. I've so much to say that again I'm sorry because of joining quite a bit Late.


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2h08

@025 Mike : Thank you Sophie for that country Is very important. You have highlighted some of the elements of the earlier discussions.@1  It is critical that Africa has a strong voice in the world social forum process. that we are truly representative diversifying in term of gender, and age, as well as language, in region is a critical development, if we are to be truly representative of Africa, in the world social forum process. 


To this end I have suggested people to join the WhatsApp dialogue group.@2  There is a direct virtual Africa assembly which brings together the many leaders and activists across the Country. I think we're about 50 people from Shack dWellers international, from habitat international, from the alliance of inhabitants, and this is a very important group for keeping us up to date with events. 

So Sophie if you're about to join that group, it's a daily chat that allows us to stay in touch, 


@3 A second development would be to join the WSF how and why Africa participation group, which would go give links to the registering in the world social forum process itself

But then I would propose we create a working group for the world social forum Africa process, as our colleagues in Asia have done, with the agreement of participants today I would go ahead and create that group.


Lots to discuss Sophie, @4 we will make a video available, and you will be able to revisit some of the earlier contributions, but this is mainly a process that the forumConnect Group is facilitating, so there will be further meetings in the next month, and hopefully we can put the really dynamic push towards Mexico in 2022.


 I would open the floor to any contributions we have had a brief discussion period where gus and others Rosie told us about another process going on at the moment

 Is there anybody would like make to final contribution, the floor is yours Gus any final world of wisdom

 Sophie any final questions ?


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@026 Sophie: I think it's not really a question, but just a complement. I really appreciate the efforts of doing all this, and of course African mobilization of social movement has been a very big challenge so far.@1  I looking at the efforts that you making, and already there was a feeling that the world social forum is dead, and I thought a lot of people thinking it died, and it's very sad, because even looking and listening to a lot of Voices, it's so sad, when we hear that the process, actually the world social forum process started dying in Kenyan in 2007, that was beginning of the death of the social forum space.


@2  But I'm so glad that of course this is a very great spirit, and it is an enormous space, without the world soical forum space i don t think i would be very active , event in the world march of women as a feminist myself. 


I learnt so much it's a process that has helped me as individual and I have really grown in that space; so for me, I appreciate, because right now, we have a lot of young people who ar joining the movements, and many time to have her history, and all the time we speak always about we start building a movement, and now the movement was born in Kenya we will always talk about the word social forum that happened in 2007.


@3 So if some of the young people who are embracing and joining the movement here, and they hear that there is a space where they can connect, and help to build together, and I think it's awesome because you're not talking of something that was there, and then is not there anymore.


We are talking abto out something that was there and that is continuing And something can help us to build to construct together,

@4  because right now looking at Capitalist system that's consuming everyone you know, so if we have an alternative space like the world social forum space and involve the young people even more that would be nice.

I really appreciate. I really wanted to thank you so much. it's a big, and maximum respect for all who have continue to carry on, with this great spirit of the world social forum. 


@027 Mike ; thank you sophie i think these are important words of encouragement, and if wsf is to continue intp the future,@1  it is critical that we engage with young people, and we make the world social forum theirs that it is their space that they own and they operate, and many of us are getting old, we need to pass on the baton to a New Generation 

So I look forward to your continuing participation in the process, not only yourself Sophie, but other comrades from Kenya and around Africa..


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@028 Mike  I would like to thank everybody who has been here today, sorry for some of the technical aspects but it's new new world we live in, unfortunately the forum Connect Group would be in touch with everybody who participated today to keep you informed, to share the video, and to organise the next meeting.

@1 On the 7th of September We will have a meeting, more for the people who would be involved in the organisational side of the world social forum, but people are more than welcome to participate and join that meeting to see some of the more technical problems around the social forum, and how we can move forward. 


2h16mn 

Mike ok with that with just reached out our 2-hours period could everybody turn on the video I would like to take Group photo for history 

I would like to thank everybody for their participation and thank you to our interpreters Pierre and Claudia for the assistance today we do have a voluntary interpretation service ,so it's not always the best, but we do what we can, and we thank our volunteers. 

so let me take a quick picture. 

viva Africa viva ! 

Thank you. great thanks everybody . thank you to the global university for making the zoom available

Massa: Je remercie tout le monde

Gus Thanks Mike 

Pierre Be patient The transcription will come

soyez patients une transcription va arriver en francais complète et en espanol

Pierre will you copy the chat 

Thank you thanks everybody au revoir