• icextension salvador17 16oct evening methodology discussion en

last modified December 27, 2017 by facilitfsm

Discussions CI of the 16/10 Salvador from 17 to 19 hours after the release fsm 2018

(automatic translation form spanish version

globe-logo.png part 1 INICIATIVAS E AGORA

"Question for a dialogue - how to integrate in the WSF methodology the actions of participants for the transformation in society and under what form should the final moment of the WSF event be?" 16/10/2018 salvador - video facebook live here (other videos )

1- Pierre 2 - Rita 3 - Pierre 4- Rita 5 - Gilio 6- Oded 7 - Salete 9 - Pierre 10 Armando 11- Pierre 12 - Nilza 13 - Pierre 13 Nilza 14 - Antonio 15 - Damien 16 - Carminda [ CPierre 16] 17 - Francine - 18 Chico 19 - Rita [C Pierre 19 ] 20 Pierre 21 Oded [C Pierre 21 ] -22 Hamouda 23- Pierre ( group initiatives and agora ) 
[in blue additions made by Pierre post meeting for comment / clarifications]

creation of the working group initiatives e Agora >> document sent to the CI November 16

globe-logo.png part 2  working group about WORLD MOVEMENT ASSEMBLY

Second part - discussion on the working group, assembly of movements and struggles

24 MIchel - 25 Oded - 26 Gus - 27 Michel - 28 Liege - 29 Oded - 30 Pierre - 31 Raphael - 32 Damien - 33 Francine - 34 Gus - 35 Pierre - 36 Hamouda  36bis/input4 Pierre

globe-logo.png part 3 FINAL DO CI

end of the CI

37 Ametista - 38 Mandela - 39 Cultura  Ametista- 40 Hamouda (decisions) - 41 Oded - 42 Pierre 43 Pierre - 44 Damien


PART 1 "question for a dialogue - how to integrate in the WSF methodology the actions of participants for the transformation in society and under what form should the final moment of the WSF event be?" 16/10/2018 salvador -


1mn Pierre 1 - This round of discussion is about knowing if we want as  CI  to enrich the methodology of the forum event to turn it a bit more process, adding next to the notion "activities" that are moments of dialogue in the forum , the notion of concrete "initiatives for another world" that are a set of actions with a determined purpose that participants in the forum intend to implement in society [ in their countries and territories or internationally after the forum in a mid-short-term horizon] . Initiatives are [more precisely] descriptions of these sets of actions, so in the participation in the forum process we have the activities and, in addition to the activities, we can talk about the specific initiatives that our organizations propose or want to build with other organizations as alliances

(Salete Rita come nearer ... ..)

Pierre 5mn - the first part of the proposal is this if we agree everyone is invited to express themselves if we agree to invite participates in WSF 2018 to describe formulate their concrete action initiative to make a tab /menu on the website for the other people can see me I'm interested in your initiative I come with you before the event, and in the event this allows us to have already a collection of diverse initiatives that shows diversity and shows the concrete initiatives that are reinforced or initiated

This is a new material that we can use at the end of the event [see part Agora in the descriptive document produced by  the working  group - which was not addressed in this discussion of 16 due to lack of time]

Including as an initiative the declarations of the "convergence assemblies", because they are public actions are statements that have a value in society after the forum

This proposal -to complete, in our WSF methodology [see the overall view proposed here], the notion of "discussion activity" in the forum with the notion of "description of sets of actions with purpose outside the forum," in society, -allows a much richer discussion among the participants in the forum, because it is not about only to say   "I make an activity with you" , it can also be said "we make an initiative together" and this, from before the event, this creates a capacity for new interlocution for entities that want to move  forward much stronger and clear

Then, all this material can be used at the end of the event, in what we have proposed to be an agora of initiatives. This is the second part of the discussion [ which was not addressed due to lack of time on the 16th]. The first part is if we want to invite participants to announce their initiatives with maybe the condition that it is being supported by at least 2 or 3 entities, so that the initiatives are not the own action done daily by the organizations themselves, but struggles projects campaigns  etc. that are made together. Then from 2 3  co impulsing organizations, and up to 50 or 100, the  bigger the number of supporters or co-impulsers the better (with problematic of "organization mode" for large initiatives ), and this can be seen without prioritizing large initiatives that appear in the forum, and that many people expect that they will leave, and on the website [ with an announcement and initiative update device] they are seen coming out.

I do not want to talk any more. The idea is that you express yourself. First Is the question clear or is it not clear? if there are people that it seems not clear to you that we are talking about, I can try to answer nothing more to clarify the question

7mn Pierre The question is whether we want to introduce the announcement of action initiatives in the methodology of this fsm 2018 event, so that participants can project themselves after the forum; and this opens up a whole new kind of possible interlocution focused on transition initiatives, struggles and projects, interlocutions that can not be stimulated by the mere notion of activity, which the vocabulary of the activities alone does not allow to be highlighted. Is this clear or not? clear we went to the discussion


9mn Rita 2 for what I understood, I think it is clear this type of initiatives to be inserted in the forum process - basically and essentially mobilization and animation. Initiative of this type are not from the forum, they are associated with movements organizations that are in the forum - it is proposed that people can articulate initiatives,


10m Pierre 3 -in the forum participation, an organization says "I want to organize or co-organize an activity with others" in the same way the organization can say - "we are an impulsing group that has an initiative in progress, quickly described with three dates of development after the forum and we invite people to come with us "- or" we have the idea of ​​doing such a thing and we seek counterpart partnerships to do it ", this is a new methodological element in the scope of action, which can, via the website , be known by the participants before the event. This will encourage dialogue, other entities approach and negotiate to be included if they find it interesting


12mn Rita 4: I understand that after registering to participate in the forum, people and entities can be invited to participate in dynamic live calendars or shared initiatives, they can commit to an action proposal in the calendar as invited - it can be interesting to people should not be associated with the registration for the forum event, should be created a space that is optional, optional, for this to occur a tool on the site - an initiative such as can not give publicity to an area of ​​initiatives if has only 4 5 date. Because of this - initiative needs a caregiver group - [ see the caregiver group in the third part of the document produced by the working group ] that will talk to connect facilitate so that you can start with many dates, with people responsible for these dates- [ stages of development of the initiatives ] but it seems that the forum has no life, this is my view…


14mn Gilio 5 Pierre what you propose is the creation of a portal

Pierre: The portal is already existing 

Gilio Can you explain then what are you proposing?


15mn Oded 6 ... It seems that Pierre's proposal is to give visibility ... to challenge organizations and movements to express what they intend to do in terms of concrete actions in society based on reflection in the world social forum - it is not an obligation of those registered and the activities, is to stimulate the organizations that are going to make an office on educational work for example, " that they intend to make from this reflection concretely their action in the society from the moment they leave the forum " -have to give a space a visibility for the actions that are intended to be done and to stimulate people and organizations that want to participate in these actions - " I want to join this action ", it is a stimulus for action, not only from reflection on what I understood is - the objective - the forum was a novelty, but this is a greater stimulus, a greater visibility [ greater than what we have put so far in the methodology fsm ] for to the actions that are intended to be carried out based on the reflection in the world social forum


17mn Salete 7 - I think that what Oded says now that in a certain way something similar was already done in certain areas of the forum, but what Pierre proposes here is an opportunity to place more organizations in this matter, and also gives more visibility so that not only those of us who are accustomed to the forum, who are used to each other, but also the new movements that come to this space, will be a stimulus to organize and integrate them into concrete actions so that [ their vision of Participation in the forum ] is not to reach the forum, only to do self-managed activities, or participate in the march, or participate in seminars conferences. Then I think it is necessary that if we agree with this proposal that Pierre is doing with Caritas, we can add to work it, and Clasco I am one that adds, and also make a very intense dialogue with GT methodology -


18mn Liege - (can not be heard)


20mn Pierre 9 answer to Gilio: we already have the portal WSF2018, but as it is presented so far I understand that there is no [ among portal designers] the option to register and describe initiatives (I agree that it is a voluntary option, not mandatory) - the WSF2018 portal already exists, we can set up a working group, define that in the menu "participate" where it will be, register, register an organization, register an activity in fsm2018, which is added "announce an initiative" [ make it an editable page for those who started it] nothing more. So it's not another portal


Armando 10: would that be problematic?


21mn Pierre 11 It seems to me that [ after 17 years of WSF and IC events ] is a methodological political discussion - very clear and important that we have to have and that we are with a certain consensus of this

The announcement of initiatives of resistance and transition / transformation in society is not mandatory, it is only a new way to participate in the event-WSF processes and can have methodological rules defined by the caregiver group proposed by Rita, which stimulates the formulation of initiatives, this care taking group can give some rules for example - that if an organization describes an initiative, it also has to say in which activity fsm2018 this initiative will be discussed so that there are many relationships between initiative and activities - and also that the organization does activities , that is not a cuckoo (a bird that comes to lay its eggs in the nest of others) that only comes to take advantage of the forum to promote their initiative without contributing to organize dialogue activities -These are rules that the group that takes care of stimulating initiatives can explain to participants what initiative is [ formally] of good quality and well inserted in the forum process

On the site you can imagine that an organization that sees an initiative comes to speak to entities that already co-promote / co drive " I get on this traininclude me as a driver / promoter of this to such conditions - An initiative that is well received by many participants is seen growing the number - of entities that the co promote / impel. Also, from a certain moment the promoters of the initiative can say " we are sufficiently consolidated and we already have a certain plan of actions in relation to The purpose of our initiative, and we can call for support to a degree of commitment more or less clear that includes many people to support and commit to implement decentralized actions or not, related to the initiative . The status of the initial descriptive form on the website, with its list of promoters and supporters, informs who is willing to take an interest or commit to this after the forum

23mn gus: Hamouda we must go to the other point of discussion


23m Nilza 12 I understand entering a little, first what is a quality initiative? but Assembly (answers from the room: "is another coisa is a second theme") is something else, because at what time this initiative proposal is combined with the proposal of the forum assemblies,  [ declarations of assemblies are considered initiativess - see answer in input 20] look - there is a proposal to stimulate a would be of initiatives, but this is not linked to the participation or registration of activity in the forum is that?


Pierre 13: if it is linked (in the sense that participation in the forum offers to use and relate activities and initiatives), but it is not linked in the sense that registering activity and registering initiative are two independent acts

[A "quality" initiative is clearly presented with dates stages / actions that can be decentralized and appropriate by many people, well presented in an activity etc is a formal criterion not of content] -


25mn Nilza 13 of how to come together initiatives and assemblies? For me it is not clear, excuse me, how this process actually takes place, how it meets with assembly convergences or not convergence, I am trying to understand.


25mn Antonio 14- in Peru for the pan-Amazon social forum we try to apply these methodological elements in the 9 space of political and organizational convergence, with initiative of convergence initiated from these spaces [ that can be compared a little to assemblies of convergence but they were not self-organized] - they were prearranged to the plenary - and they were exposed on paper throughout the plenary space ( the plenary was a big circus tent to see the photo and the video) and people talked to the promoters, and it was adding up , it was chaotic is true and has stimulated things - from the space / assemblies came 2 3 initiative that is 30 initiative in total - there are some that are in progress others that fell - it is still chaotic - I think it can be difficult to do this in a world forum I do not imagine how [ we're going to see it in the working  and caregiving group see the simulation made here for 75 initiatives and 5000 people ]


28 mn Damián 15: About a final moment, to give visibility to action, perspective analysis of strategy for the future, we have a consensus. The problem that I see now is the accessibility of communication. "Initiative" I do not know what it is, the agora  of initiative, will be well understood ideas in the cultural field of Brazil Latin America? We want a post forum to have a continuity, now the form, if it is a somewhat more playful statement, the art, the political part, still the form is not explicit. [ definition of initiative is now described in the document of the workding group - and "methodology of initiatives" includes intiatives - kiosk  - agora - calendar - online calendar - that are innovative elements in  the assets of wsf event methodology]

So far the silence of the room shows that there is a problem of understanding, I propose a group that deepens the proposal of - little matter the name, if the name is not appropriate for the people - maybe start with a point to reform re propose for the whole there is a problem of formulation - there is no understanding of what is being proposed to do - Paste the proposal deepen it a bit - people form Canada and fospa social forum must enter the group with their experience to reformulate in a more accessible way -


31mn Carminda 16 seems fundamental - called initiative or action - that we push the idea that actions are being produced in the forum , it is one of the main criticisms of the forum: that we speak and we do not act - [ activities /  initiatives] - we need visibility for actions to change this world. The proposal to articulate a group seems fundamental to me and we need to make it simple. We pushed the idea and the reception of the work of this group would be very interesting and strong in this forum of Bahia, where we have a space that is open diverse with movements pushing specific things. There is something we can adopt is to push action without defining even as they are called - let the  group work [here the output fo the group document  i


Pierre 16bis (clarifying post-discussion in relation to interventions by Damien and Carminda) supplement on the selection of the words "initiatives" and "agora" : these are words proposed with some arguments to be used as durable elements of methodology, WSF with a generic vocabulary Easy to translate in several forum languages. Today, many of us know that "Activity" is a generic word that can be all kinds of things: workshops, seminars, assemblies, etc.

"Initiative" in the same way this proposal as a generic word that can be called many things in the field of action with purposes: struggles, projects, campaigns, construction processes etc.

We observe on the other hand that initiatives are not isolated "actions", but are a continuity of actions organized in time and space towards an end of resistance or social or ecological transformation are   autonomous sets of actions,, . The group that promotes an initiative is responsible for defining action plans and proposing ways of internal organization and actions to supporters / contributors to reach the goal / purpose. For this reason, using the word "action" as a generic word would also be reducing, since it is a set of actions with a purpose

In the same way the proposal of the word "Ágora" is not casual: it evokes a scope of many concrete discussions of business or public administration among Greek citizens in the same physical place. It is an imaginary of all empowered participants and it is convenient for a final forum combined with the assessment of various initiatives written and signed on the website- The imaginary of an "Agora" differs from the imaginary of an "assembly" where there is only one conversation, with mechanically few speakers and many auditors. People who go to convergence assemblies do so voluntarily, and know that they may need to affirm so that their word is heard in the assembly organized by their facilitators or leaders, or that the deliberations of the assembly are voluntarily and explicitly signed by entities or persons , and are not presented as supposedly approved by an indeterminate public

In the area of ​​facilitation of the WSF, it would be very questionable, in my opinion, to propose a final WSF event that has an assembly format for the reasons that this format channels the focus on one or a few topics and tends to concentrate the use of the word in few mouths and make passive many participants who have on the other hand all capacity and desire to intercommunicate among themselves on initiatives of common interest, what they can do in an agora format


34mn Francine 17: sometimes I think I understood well, that Pierre's proposal is simple, announce or support initiatives is not mandatory, then it is easy to accept the proposal, what is needed is a small text of three four sentences with the proposal for all to understand - all this seems interesting to me, but it will not progress if we do not have an easy access website

(35m Hamouda on manifesto on education - list group name country to sign on behalf of your organization - Leonardo explaining the case) -


37m Chico 18 - introduce a deadline for the group to make its conclusions before the start of registration opening on the site fsm2018


38mn Rita 19 that is not at the same time as the registration of activities, if the proposal is approved, in the activity registration system, can make a lot of confusion, on the other hand people do not want big questionnaires - We can go in a site and make bells that is more permanent -


Complemento Pierre : I understand that Rita or Gilio maybe think that there should be a special website, different from the event site that would collect the initiatives]. I think that we are not in a position to maintain such a permanent site for initiatives at the level of resources and at the level of centralizing legitimacy in the WSF process. It seems logical and legitimate that each event can produce its calendar of initiatives rooted in its reality. It is evident that there will be many initiatives from Bahia or Brazil in this forum fsm2018 as there were many local Quebec initiatives in Montreal 2016 Calendar of initiatives. Each event has its own calendar of initiatives  and the committee facilitating the event with the "calendar group" that works post event, can keep it updated and communicable "some time" without pretending that this calendar is permanent or universal

Boy -


40mn Pierre 20- the idea is that we are in the event 2018, people are going to register, register an organization, then an activity, later, in December you can open the possibility of registering initiative in the same place (Rita seems do not agree) I agree with the idea of ​​making a group that some people announce

The question Nilza asks can be explained; Yes. There is a link with the assemblies of convergences, since the declarations of these assemblies, with or without action-steps in them, would be considered initiatives in the FSM methodology, even the statements can mention support for other initiatives etc.

On the other hand the methodological group Calendar that would take care for calendar of initiatives in fsm2018 does not make top down operations  to manipulate the initiatives content etc. if an initiative is attractive, the number of promoters / promoters grows and also that of supporters. This is convergence and it  is reflected in the website, with some initiatives that have a lot of participation and support.

The list and calendar of initiatives on the website is only a reflection of the real dialogues between participants and the driving groups of each initiative, [and each group can edit their file to include new names of driving entities, modify the content as a result of discussions, or publish number of supports etc]. Everything is done manually by the people in charge of an initiative, without the facilitation group influencing the content of the initiative. In the same way that for an activity when new co-organizers are added is the same thing that happens

(44mn culture group?)


46mn Oded 21: those who know me know that I am with actions - even in my personal life - the choice between reflection and action is dangerous because a reflection is also an action - academic seems to do nothing is useful profession - It is very important that when the forum began, try to gather reflection and action, then initial idea of ​​forum and join the organization who are active so that their action can be strengthened. There was an attempt to make visible a building wall where the actions were placed, one thing also important for us: there is no possibility of placing everyone in the same action, participation is voluntary and free, is what the forum does, even nothing is more important that another: racism, capitalism, financial system, mining, all struggles are considered and it is very important to preserve this spirit and value both reflection and action and walk together


[Complement Pierre in relation to Oded's intervention: I agree with Oded about the fact that the experience of dialogues with different people in the forum is a strong personal change factor, but this is not seen and is not communicated well, it is a live that is difficult to communicate if you have not experienced it.

Reflection and action go together as the two legs we need to move forward. So, why, methodologically speaking are we jumping on one leg, the activities since 2001? It would be interesting to make the history of this other leg that is missing ( the one of activities)  through the WSF events. We can recognize that in 17 years of forum we have not worked enough, as facilitators of wsf events process; in the assessment of the action dimension, in its most diverse nuances and without caricature. This is what is attempted to collect under the generic notion of "initiatives". The forum 17 years after its beginning, is "more of the same thing", that is to say "activities" without methodological encouragement to make explicit iinitiativesi. Hence the risk of too many discussions of diagnosis, of denunciation, and not enough discussions of what and how to do for another possible world, and also the difficulty to assess "communicable" results of the forum. In this sense, the introduction of the notion of "initiative" complementing the notion of "activity" in the WSF methodology could help to deepen the WSF process and renew it, in tune with the charter of principles Article 6 and 7 in particular


48mn Hamouda22 then working group with small document like the one of caritas - for people who want to be in the group


48mn Pierre 23 who is willing to start the group? Antonio Gilio Carminda Rita join in, followed by Catia Gilberto Mandela Ricardo Salete

Second part Advance work group AMM - AMM status

24 MIchel - 25 Oded - 26 Gus - 27 Michel - 28 Liege - 29 Oded - 30 Pierre - 31 Raphael - 32 Damien - 33 Francine - 34 Gus - 35 Pierre - 36 Hamouda  36bis/input4 Pierre 


49mn Michel: I have papers in ES FT PT IN presentation about the assembly - these papers are normally received in the IC mailing list- and also when I sent the global rapporteur two days ago -..... The AMM project We are going to organize on March 16 what in Montreal during the CI of Montreal Damien started yesterday saying- we have to organize an event in a few months, but I also say after these months - we have the responsibility every time an activity is organized there is a event always the assemblies are organized locally and there is really no connection between these work - it is an important work but it does not become global - to connect all these processes in a more global process. Also the idea came from a diagnosis that we had to discover new ways to re-mobilize some movements that we lost because we know that many tell us nothing is done in the forum we do not have results -imagine something to come back with us and finally have a process that would give us more capacity to have a way to define a common strategy at a global level from one event to another -

In CI of Montreal we have made a committee of some people who propose to make this reflection in some ways 1 / this survey we sent 13 questions - I will not go into this but in the end it is that most of the respondents are not CI, other movements are good indication and results are very favorable - of those who responded are organizations nobody said they did not want to participate -

2 / things that We decided to organize discussion workshops in different places to discuss this proposal so that these people at the end of their process send people to see go here in March so that we have these results of the assemblies held in the world here - there were discussions about the name (I'll be short - when we speak in Montreal "assembly of fighting movements" - there was a lot of discussion about this name. after Porto Alegre let's talk about assembly of xxx, and also other questions about this name in the survey I put together the World Assembly of Movements AMM and yesterday I think Mauri proposed Permanent World Assembly. We can discuss until the end of the day and the name is not so important - So what we want to do finally is this role - I am going to read we want a process more linked to the movements that have a permanent assembly that is maintained from a world event to another and also a national or thematic event to others to give more voices to the movements - We also want this AMM to work to make a cartography of the movements because everyone can say that they know the movements of their country, but not of the others countries It will help to know, and in the end, AMM will contribute to defining a global strategy, processes -

that is why we have proposed a structure for - we think that the structure should be new, and we will include groups that are not normally in the forum .... New structure - open that will want to hang (?) The movements and give them a leadership in the process itself. This structure will function permanently as a group with 3 roles - 1 / continue to circulate the information - share between the actors sectors levels -2 / ensure the participation of all the thematic national processes that exist in the process [of the forum] sometimes we know a process we did not have how to invite -

xxxx It is an attempt to reach consensus at all levels so that we can propose more global campaigns as possible - From today I wanted to propose a small group to see who are the groups that we have to invite - and there are many possibilities social forum panamazonico nuclear processes there are many processes that are organized - where the assemblies are organized - see if it is possible to mobilize these people and invite them to participate in the global assembly and I hope that at the end on March 16 is going to be able to create a permanent assembly where it will continue in the future - I will stop here for questions



1h01mn Oded I wanted only some clarification regarding this initiative; first you said ( in the document handed over) that the assembly will act "in parallel" to the IC; what does this mean? another thing to know if it is linked to the article- of Boaventura that announced the change of the charter of principles of the WSF as an initiative of the assembly of popular movements - I wanted to know, because he already announced the change of the charter of principles, in Salvador, in March - It is already announced, as a quick thing, and what is the idea of ​​acting in parallel to the international council ?, what does that mean? ... Because I think it can be interesting; It can be dangerous, for the idea of ​​convergence and open space so that everyone can participate. If there is the idea of ​​a dissidence? If there is the idea of ​​dividing? If there is going to face? What is the idea behind this? I just wanted to understand



1h02 Gus Merci Michel. Effectivement c'est une des décisions qui avait été prises au CI à Montréal [ de créer un groupe de travail sur une assemblée des mouvements - ) -et je trouve très intéressant that l'enquête that Michel a lancée, qui a eu quand même 40 réponses et même 600 personnes who visited the site - donc the question that I posed, c'est quelle est la prochaine étape? -evidemment c'est celle du fsm2018, et donc il faudra prévoir dans les assemblées, dans les activités du fsm de Salvador - unites "rencontre" qui permette de définir et de lancer l'assemblée des mouvements en lutte - dont il faudra d ' Ailleurs Define the titre. Pour préparer cette assemblée, je crois that in dehors of the formula d'une inscription d'une activité au forum, the grouping of travail devrait contacter les mouvements qui participant à l'assemblée des mouvement sociaux, pour and participer, pour leur dire that c'est dans la continuité, et nous proposons de construcire quelque chose de nouveau - tout ça c'est l'objet d'une mediation et de faire un invitation et quelques contact - maintenant for rapport à ce que proposait Michel sur la cartographie - il faudrait commencer avant le forum pour pouvoir montrer quelque chose - pour cela, ma proposition n'est pas de faire une cartographie des mouvements, - parce que il ya toujours une question: quels sont les mouvements qui d'une manière ou d'une autre ne veulent pas être en lutte ou ne is considered to be in lutte - je proposerais de faire une cartographie des luttes, et that groupe de travail justement identifie les luttes pour montrer la diversité e t la richesse des luttes et qu'on identifie pour chacune des luttes, des mouvements, que nous allons ... to which nous allons sued to come participer à l'assemblée -, Donc si on peut élargir the groupe de travail actuel - on pourrait avoir quelque chose d'intéressant -


1h02 Gus Thanks Michel. In fact, it was one of the decisions that were made at the IC in Montreal [to create a working group on a movement assembly] ] - and I find it very interesting that the research that Michel launched, which still had 40 answers and even 600 people who visited the site, so the question I ask myself is what is the next step? - Obviously it is the one of fsm2018, and for what it is necessary to foresee in the assemblies in the activities of the FSM Salvador - a "meeting" that allows to define and to put in march the assemblies of movements; in struggle, whose title should be defined, To prepare this assembly, I believe that, apart from the classic formula of registering an activity in the forum, the working group should contact the movements that participated in the meeting of social movements, so that participate, to tell you that it is in continuity, and that we propose to build something new, all this is the object of a mediation and to make an invitation and some contacts - Now in relation to what Michel proposes in the mapping - We should start before the forum to be able to show something - For that, my proposal is not to map the movements - because there is always a question: What are the movements that in one way or another do not want to be in struggle or do not consider themselves in the struggle? I would propose to map the struggles, and that the working group accurately identify the struggles - to show the diversity and richness of the struggles that the working group identifies the struggles to show their diversity and richness, and that identifies for each of the struggles , the movements, that we are going to ... to whom we will ask him to come to the assembly, then, if we can expand the current working group, we could have something interesting,



1h08 - Michel would like to respond to the idea of ​​parallel process to the international council. The idea is that we have to invite people or groups that are not right now in the international council, and we want them to feel [good], and that they speak they try to make consensus and do the work that the CI does not have time to do, I think it's going to be very difficult - and we can not decide today that the people of AML panamazonic forum or African climate convergence are going to be part of the council. A more useful, more functional work is to give them a space where they can discuss as groups as a social movement -, it is not an absolute idea, I think it would be .. More functional in this way give this specific space to groups that will work for the assembly.

I did not know the Boaventura article, so I also thought that organizing this meeting during the forum at the time of the forum, will just allow us not to change the principle letter of the social forum, and do so without touching the rest of the forum - as it is currently. My personal vision I thought that in this way we can give a space to groups that do not want exactly ... or just want to get more concrete results in terms of action campaigns, visions and position statements, that the forum can not do, without touching the rest of the forum, - Have strength without changing, with groups that tell us that they are not more interested because they can not make decisions within the social forum



1h11m Liege when the decision was taken [to create a working group on such an assembly] in the CI of Montreal, it was not a coisa to be overpowered and compete as a nao era, - in a nenhuma way, to be discussed by a group of work within CI qual é a ideia? One of the two problems that occurred was that a forum was meeting, or a forum for a two-year event is not in process as a process, and that there is a need to do not have an area of ​​IC, a forum or a meeting, or The first thermos that was used was the assemblage of povos em lutas so that it could be that "quanto" of luta would not be apart from CI - or CI would accompany this process, and the assemble would be done not from the forum, about the coordenação do propio CI ! .I'm not coisa for being over or against or CI, a structure that would be confronted or confluent as CI - Hair minus this understanding that was in Montreal when it was discussed because, for example, AMS was an organized coisa It is organized by some organizations and social movements, and it is an idea that this assembly is organized, including its own hair. - Entao nao was overpowered by a penitentiary or a working group that would be responsible for this organization and coordination. enaçao And what is confused here, is not being raised an additional instinct to be contrasted to CI hair unless initial idea was essa - I document that This not question is the other instrument within CI that is contravened by letter of principle - Nao It is placed na escnto é nem that would be a letter in function - Precise It will amadurecer essa question to not be raised distorted visão do sense da criação da assembleia .. It is not outra estrutura mais uma articulação that will happen within the forum about a coordenação e aos auspícios doprprio CI


Liege When the decision was made [to make a working group] At the Montreal IC, it was not a thing to overlap and compete with the IC was not, in any way, to be discussed by a working group on such an assembly, at the CI in Montreal, it was not a thing to overlap and compete with the IC, working within the IC What is the idea? One of the problems that was seen was that the forum was meeting, the forum became an event every two years, it is not acting - it is not acting as a process, it was that there was a need to be in the field of IC, forum, an assembly, the forum, the first term that was used was "assembly of peoples in struggles" so that it could be that "amount" of struggle would not be apart from the IC - the IC would accompany this process, it is the assembly would be carried out in the field of the forum, under the coordination of the IC itself! And one thing to overcome the IC or to oppose the IC, a structure that would be in confrontation or conflict as the IC - At least it is this understanding that had by Montreal when it was discussed because for example AMS has been an organized thing, which is organized by some organizations and social movements, and the idea is that this Assembly would be organized even by the IC itself - as soon as it did not overlap the IC then it would have a working group that would be responsible for this organization and coordination. And that is a confusion here, is not creating another instance to oppose the IC at least initial idea was not that - I document that is in the questionnaire if it another instance within the IC and that is opposed to the letter of principle - It is not written in the letter or it would be a letter in function - It needs to mature that question so as not to create a distorted vision of the meaning of the creation of the assembly. It is not another structure but an articulation that will exist within the forum under the coordination and the auspices of the IC itself



1h15mn Oded important the clarifications. I wanted to make an observation we have to be very careful with the xxxx of the whole process - not to separate movements and no movements, who is or is not in struggle, who are the people and who are the organizations -give value to ones and less to others. The initial idea of ​​the forum to be an inclusive space and a space that could avoid the poison that we have in left movements that is the struggle for power - which has always weakened the movements we are losing and one of the causes is that we do not reach have magnitude and tolerance and we have to reproduce the culture of neoliberalism that is the culture of struggle for power. Liberalism is not only an economic process and it is also a mental process where the struggle for power predominates, we are fighting to make this space of the forum an inclusive space where everyone participates -

Also say the forum does not act, who makes action we are we, the organizations and we can not blame the forum processes if there is no action, we are the movements that do the actions, and there is no way to delegate to the forum to take action - we as entities and individuals movements that we have to do the actions - The forum is a space process that allows for the articulation of actions - It is a warning a careful warning for this new political movement - here [in the document on the assembly] it is written that it is a movement parallel to the CI - this space that the word of Boaventura that is part [of the working group / of the CI] - says that it is decided that in Bran it is time to change the letter of principles, did not say that it will propose to change, says it will change - It is written here. 

Assembly of Social Movements AMS we have in many forums a long time ago - it is not a new thing AMS from Porto Alegre exists, participates and makes assembly, makes final declaration, makes consensus proposal - it is only an observation about what care we have with this entity [the CI? the Forum?] that is very precious very fragile but very important



1h18 Pierre - I wanted to make some observations, resuming the discussion of the IC in porto alegre on this matter, and I will say the same thing as then and develop. I understand that this assembly, whatever the name; It is an idea, a project of some members of CI also with other organizations, and for me it is perfectly legitimate, it is a self-organized project and I do not see any organic relationship with the CI. 

For me, the CI takes care of the forum process, and if there are people who want to make permanent assemblies that have activity in the forum, it seems good to me, if they want to generate social and political leadership as a grouping of organizations, it seems completely legitimate, and it has no relation with the IC, I insist on that. It is an activity in the forum like any other. I even suggested a name and proposed a demo space in www.openfsm.net to develop etc - by the way, the name "movements And struggles", so the "Y" is undefined and allows all the variations to be wanted, so very simple but it is not my business -

After making this point , i say very clear, that for Cáritas, there is no relationship between this assembly and the CI as between any assembly of convergence and the CI: nothing. It happens that this assembly is discussed here because there are IQ members who propose this idea. The IC does not have to decide anything in relation to this, it is clear that it is independent, there is no relationship -

And I have a question because I understand that [this assembly] is an incipient process and I see the words "we are going to launch on the occasion of bay, "let's invite", Gus says "we are going to select the fights that we are going to invite" - It is completely self-organized and I have nothing to say, but for me, the forum space is a horizontal space, then [from the decision] of Copenhagen in 2008, implemented in Belem 2009] all the assemblies have the same status, and I would like it to be explained a bit. 

I do not see why this new assembly would have a particular status in the methodology of the forum: it is like the other thirty convergence assemblies that we are going to have, and if it pretends to articulate more, to do convergence on the second floor, in the methodology of the forum, it would have to accept to be horizontal and serious by delegation that the entities that voluntarily participate in this assembly can send delegates to articulate and create the statements they want, but without pretending to have a particular status, and the will to get behind the other assemblies because -the others are So legitimate, they're all self-organized like this. Everything is fine but here I would like to have the opinion of the people [in the IC], if for them this assembly has a particular status relative to other assemblies of convergence or not.



1h24 Raphael is the same thing, a point of clarification for you Michel because you said in response to Oded's question that this assembly is a solution for not modifying the letter of principles OK, that is to say that there is an assembly of convergence like the others; self-managed or something different? If it's something else, you have to discuss it.



1h24 Damien 30- vou falar en portugues  fica mas fácil. Desculpe, mas acho que temos que parar esta discusao ai - nois fizemos dois dias de excelente reunião, onde  conseguimos chegar a começar certa dinâmica,impresoes, dé análise de conjuntura muita profundo  conseguimos tomar decisões, apontar a questoes, e estamos cheios de energia - repetindo as mesma questões y reafirmando nossos pontos de vista imutáveis e incapazes até de ouvir a possibilidade de busca, “o Ci no tem que se envolver”, outros vão dizer “sim o CI tem que se envolver”- não avanza.  Eu discordo Pierre que o CI nao tem que debater, o nao deveria nem colocar esta possibilidade de assembleia final,

desculpe qual é a função do CI para além de escolher o lugar?, qual é a função do CI?- e articular !, nos nao estamos fazendo procesos de convergencia aquí,? Isso aquí não é espacio dé convergencia? é uma convergencia!,  o fato de estar buscando denominador comum para poder avanzar  - o CI nao faz articulação internacional? Quem faz articulação internacional? E o próprio CI! - se não houvesse o CI, mismo que seus debates servem para nada, e conjunto de egos que no considera se resolver,que nao é-totalmente errado, que nao e totalmente certo também, o qual é umproblema, mesmo assim a gente está conseguindo se articular- se nao foss o CI nosotros no teriamos un foro em Salvador –, Então e a gente e o processo também, através do CI conseguiu se articular, inclusive a assembleias de convergência. Eu nao conhecia além de movements baianos, nao conhecia ninguem de voces.

e através do CI numa ideia como essa é de assembleia dé convergência final, un idea comoe essa  de AML, tem que ser debatida pelo CI. O CI tem papel, tem que ser debatir que tem papel, sim tem, que fazer grupo de trabalho! Se a gente nao conversar sobre assembleias, não se trabalha sobre àgora de iniciativas, acho que os dois aspectos de realidade. Se se a gente nao fazer, não no sei o pai e mai do que va sair disso, esta assembleia nao tem a mesma forma que outras assembleias de convergência:  nosso papel aqui ele e un papel político de preparar espacio logistica tecnica, nao tenho opiniao,  e espaço de convergência., Isso que não vamos conseguindo avanzar mais, porque estamos repetindos mesmas coisas - Sugiro que fazemos os dois grupos e passar para conclusão, faltara o hamouda bater martelo sobre recapitular as decisões e vamos adiante


Depois a questão de Boaventura : acho a matéria foi socializado para todo mundo. Tem interpretação un poco errada da matéria, acho que o jornalista pegou a matéria de boaventura assim com pergunta  “ que que tem que deveria ser feito em marzo?” e ele começa, como se fosse uma ficção,”a carta de princípios é cambiada,  o ci se auto-dissolve” - Ele está viajando está pensando. Acho o jornalista pegou essa matéria que a carta de princípios tem que ser cambiada, Nao quero abrir outro debate, va a ser intençao traduzir a matéria divulgar para companheiros, pelo menos estimula o debate e reflexão  -

Vamos criar esse grupo -vamos para esta discussão que não avance, nao está avanzando - a gente ta reafirmando suas opiniões, eso propondo que a gente fechamos “com chave de ouro”.


1h24 Damien 30 - I'm going to speak Portuguese, it's easier. I'm sorry, but I think we have to stop this discussion, we have done two days of excellent meeting, where we managed to get to start some dynamics, impressions, analysis of very deep juncture we get to make decisions, point out the issues, and we are full of energy - "repeating the same questions and reaffirming our immutable and incapable points of view even to hear the possibility of searching," the Ci does not have to get involved ", others will say" yes the CI has to get involved "- it does not advance. that the IC does not have to debate, that he should not even place this possibility of final assembly,

I feel soory ,what the role of the IC is beyond choosing the place, what is the function of the IC? - and articulate, we are not doing processes of convergence here,? That is not a space of convergence here? It is a convergence !, the fact of looking for a common denominator to be able to move forward - the CI does not make an international articulation? Who does international articulation? It's the IC itself! - If there was no IC, even their debates are useless, and a set of egos that is not considered to be resolved, that is not totally wrong, that is not totally true, which is a problem, even so people are getting to articulate If it were not the ICwe would not have a forum in Salvador -, then and the people and the process too, through the IC managed to articulate, including the convergence assemblies. I did not know beyond the Bahian movements, I did not know anyone of you and I knew through the IC.

 In an idea like that of a meeting of final convergence, an idea like that of AML, has to be debated by the IC. The IC has a role, it has to debate that it has paper if it has, do working groups! If we do not talk about this assembly, we do not work on the agora of initiatives, I think they are two aspects of reality. If people do not do it, I do not know the father and the master of what is going to come out of that. This Assembly does not have the same form as other assemblies of convergence: our role here is a political role of preparing space for technical logistics, I have no opinion and the space of convergence, that we are not going to move forward, because we are repeating the same things - I suggest that we make the two groups and go to the conclusion, there will be no hamouda hit hammer on recapitulating the decisions and we will go ahead


After the question of Boaventura: I think the matter has been socialized for everyone. "The interpretation of the matter is a little wrong, I think the journalist took the matter of Boaventura and asked" What should be done in March? "And he begins, as if it were a fiction," the letter of principles is changed, the CI self-dissolves "- He is traveling, he is thinking, I think the journalist has taken this matter that the letter of principles has to be changed I do not want to open another debate, it is going to be an intention to translate the material to be disseminated to colleagues, at least it stimulates debate and reflection,


"We are going to create this group, it is for this discussion that it does not advance, it is not advancing - people are reaffirming their opinions, proposing that people close" with a golden key "



1h29mn Francine 33 would like to react on what you said Pierre - I was totally in agreement with the first thing you said, - that is to say that it is an assembly outside the IC and outside the forum; that is a legitimate assembly as every movement can do every continent, we agree on that -

if you then say that it has the same status as other convergence assemblies - but no! because it is not part of the forum, does it not part of the forum? -yes! You said it has the same status as another convergence assembly - It has nothing to do - Convergence assemblies are assemblies that are part of the forum process - an assembly of the movements as before or the new one, they are outside the forum and meet wherever - we have nothing to say about that - then that other assembly does not belong to the forum process, they can meet at the forum occasion because they do not; on other occasions because no, it's your decision is not our decision - It's one thing

When the article from Boaventura is very important, it seems to me that after Montreal many things have changed - we made a very positive journey - and it seems to me a very important personal opinion that we are following on the very positive path that we launched after Montreal and Porto glad we have to do - if this assembly of movements wants to do I do not know which decision or proposition - it is its decision, it is not ours [ as IC] , we continue on the positive path that we have now - I think we do not have at this moment to change the charter of principles It would be very negative and would be very divisive. We do not have to do it



1h32 Gus 34 Now we stop



1h32mn Pierre 35 I would like to clarify I think there is misunderstanding | about what francine said]

 [Pierre - after meeting to make the clarification that I could not do on the moment] - I think the word "assembly" is misleading because in this discussion we use it in two different ways 1 / as  the name an autonomous permanent process and 2 / as a meeting in March scheduled in the WSF by this permanent process -1 / the process of this assembly is autonomous and independent of the facilitation of the forum as n any entity that participates in the forum process - we agree with Francine 2 / the actors of this "permanent assembly" process will take part in the WSF 2018 event by organizing, as Gus and Michel have said, one or more "activities" - which probably involve a lot of activity

This great activity in the methodology of the forum is a priori an "a self-organized assembly of convergence" which is advantaged in the programming of this fsm2018 because there is less parallelism in the "slots" reserved for the assembles , but no asembly can claim to be alone in a slot of time, as all assemblies are to be considered equitatively as this is  here the forum is an horizontal space 

This does not preclude self organised or facilitated consultation between promoters of assemblies so they "program the least problematic parallelisms during the time,slots dedicated to assemblees and it remains in the end that the principle that parallelism is not a problem but a reality of open space, a reality that the participating entities easily deal with by the designation and coordination of several "delegates" attending various assemblies taking place at the same time

I am simply saying that this meeting / activity meeting of convergence that the leaders / facilitators of the process assemblies of movements and struggles want to organize on the occasion of this fsm2018, to launch this process, must be treated by the facilitation / programming fsm2018 like the others , as done since Belem 2009, and has no status different from other Convergence Assemblies. The fact that various IF member organizations are co-organizers of this Convergence Assembly does not give it a special status. The impulsive entities of this assembly in the fsm2017 can also choose to self-program "the evening" outside the programming hours of content activities 




1h34 mn Hamouda 36 Pierre is useless, it is 7 o'clock at night there is only a culture commission that wants to talk, and recapitulate discussions

In Montreal there was a working group role for an assembly of movements, and to discuss this role as to how to work this role this is the discussion.We will not continue to discuss with the group of 15 people who are in this group, to prepare an activity in the forum of Bahia, and will see a proposal



This is an added input after the meeting : in response to the "closure of the discussion with a golden key" by  Damien and Gus,(input32), and commenting what Hamouda says about the working group created in Montreal about this assebmly ( input36

  There are 7 elements that appear when reflecting on the transcription of the discussion with the video and allow then to mature some requests/solicitations to IC member entities to exercise their co-responsibility of care of the WSF  event  methodological accrual/accmulate/asset http://openfsm.net/projects/wsfic_fsmci/salvador17-input5-en  

third part GT culture e final of CI

37 Ametista - 38 Mandela - 39 Cultura  Ametista- 40 Hamouda (decisions) - 41 Oded - 42 Pierre 43 Pierre - 44 Damien 


1h34mn Ametiste GT of culture will continue to spread our ideas. A proposta to criticize: a first proposal of cultural cortege during opening march, as fosse school of samba within the march of various arts, circus all arts, samba. To outra proposta é we are chamando of "cultural buxixo" or "bluff" tem dois nomes. E o seguinte fazer mobilização before forum - people get together communities in all places ao mesmo tempo is going to happen to us problematic do forum, and go fazer conhecer or forum and discuss it is possible or forum. Within the forum there are several offices - day turnante - offices of customized vestibule, fake poetry office, magic office, office de.palhaço fotografia, between outros -...... and a process ... - a presença e asina divulgando or foro - traiza das artes - box livre là na ondina and outro palco livre in ondina em outra praca - for unexpected coisas - a recital that people intend that seja international will distribute material - Em certain hour nesse espaço to fazer a roda culture of resistência palestra to be e debate - Debate about culture - concerns redoles a proposta culture faz unhappily part, preconceito, ... outras activities find carano na communities and sequestrar os artists - ......... .. each culture culture will be two others group. More or less, and I know that people are thinking - in fact - that there is a big solidarity party. I also want to raise two questionnaires, two artists, who lived only in art, and to discuss now or win national and national research. international ... Ta bom?


1h34mn Ametiste Culture GT will continue to spread our ideas. The proposal to criticize: the first proposal of cultural courtship during the opening march, as if it were a school of samba within the march of several artes, circus all the arts, samba. The other proposal is we are calling "cultural buxixo" the "lighthouse" has two names. And the next do mobilization before the forum - people join in the communities in all places at the same time will pass our problematic forum, and will make known the forum is to discuss if the forum is possible. In the forum you will have several workshops - shift day - personalized costume workshops, spoken poetry workshop, magic workshop, printing workshop, among others - and a process ... - presence and presence and in the case of a work of art that is not that of the arts - free stage in the ondina and another free stage in undulating in another square - for unexpected things - a recital that people intend to be international is going to distribute material - At a certain time in that space to do it and in case there is a change in the quality of life of the people who live on the earth. group. In the case of artists, who only live on art - no and to discuss now the win investment is nationally disclosed and not due to the great solidarity party. international .... Is it good?


1h41mn hamouda people are tired


1h41mn Mandela - Qual eo encaminhamentos sobre assemblea


XX sboe culture ... ..


1h42 hamouda tomorrow 8h30 the two decisions of the day

1 / International mobilization on January 23 for Davos Otra en buenos aires - A bonn 3 to 6 climate summit - and in Montevideo, there is the mobilization of women: 14th LAC feminist meeting from November 23 to 25

All sent in the list oK?


1h43mn 2 / the finance commission goes: please leave with the person on the list a paper explaining why for the mobilization of finances for the international council e for the bay forum also

3- commission methodology to continue yesterday's discussion on how to make the bay forum make the most worked proposal to finalize the process

4 - Agora of initiatives - a page of Pierre with Antonio and those that other people want

creation of the working group initiatives e Agora >> document sent to the CI November 16

5 assembly of movements struggles peoples is proposed by the international council there is a group of 15 people in this group. Finish or think about how to do an activity in the Bay Forum, the group exists - the paper with the proposal that is not a change of letter of principles, everyone knows, is an initiative to mobilize many Panamanian forum of migrants from nuclear all the social forum that is to create a global space for action - this discussion to have


Oded -only support the word of Damien that meeting was "high astral" and observation that our internal things are internal and not put our debate in the press, that no fights appear, complaints that the media wants to divide us, it is very easy going destroy all communication commission (applause)



1h50 Pierre the date of Davos is in the air - it would be called for Davos you have to have a group to make a call proposal

1h50 Hamouda agree if it will be done (I asked Mauri to make a small parafo to send in the list tomorrow)


1h50 Pierre on methodology: how can the members of the ci contribute to the GT groups that are supposed to be open as in the methodology if someone from the ci wants to come 7 GT as it is done on 18

1h50 Hamouda there is a meeting on the 18th, it is necessary to discuss how to involve IC members in GT and social forum organization

Pierre - then it is possible to come in the GT on the 18th?

All: Siii


1h50 Damien - part of methodology - we are locking up. the idea is that we have activities tomorrow 17 18 are 5 tables from 8 to 22h -5 and two activities to do in the task an experience of the convergence of national and international movements - the 19th will be only of the Brazilian movements and if the others stay and participate, no problem - we can not get a bus to the university -

Pierre qual é or format of tables in these two days?

Damien: From 4 speakers and a lot of time to talk and thought as a social forum