1h00 video Leo  Since there is no more intervention lt us sum it up I am a  structuralist in social science so what remains from me of all the different interventions 

there might be weird green convergence but how to produce it that was the outside and I would say JJ that this the spearhead of such a movement might be as a matter of fact the claim for a ceasefire in order to detect also  who is against the ceasefire, and from there on cover up the most important, or at least the most actual present conflict which is Kurdish conflict in Ukraine

And from there on on this broad understanding what peace really means, peace cannot be without Justice, peace cannot be without in the present framework of the economic system, it cannot be  without the climate movement peace cannot be with repression against the actors who promoted it ,and so on there is a how real variety of issues which can be covered by a main intention and main goal, and everybody could participate in that and produced in such a way convergence between different movements

That's why I provisionally would guess could be a sort of syntheses of this first part

@B1 Leo Let's go to the second part

Rose told me that she would prefer that somebody from Europe and the international Council which take up this point and I would like to ask Isabelle la if she would would be so kind to take up the moderation of the second part because you have been also in most of the discussions around this point different topics Isabelle

Isabell  no no frankly I don't feel in a frame that allows that sorry in improvising this way no

Leo Paco? would you be ready to make the moderation on the second point Paco

Paco sorry Leo I have to leave in 15-minutes because I have to go to to care to the family you know no I have my problems everyday so I can stay here another 50 minutes no more sorry

Leo  so anybody else proposing himself or herself for the moderation if not we can I continue you

Tord I suggested Ole

Ole sorry I'm working I'm afraid I'm not in that position to moderate apologies

@B2 Leo The second point and we can somehow consider it is, like Pierre suggested at the beginning, also the final point

 It is about what changes you know no the tunis seminar is about because there are differences in opinion not only in the international Council but also in the movements around, about how how the world social forum needs to be restructured

There are several points where everybody agrees for instance that we consider to conceive it as a process and not at the series of events, a permanent process , and we try to reach a convergence, and the ones say there is an instrument of immobilization that the WSF as such would have to take up, the others disagree on that

If we follow this question, very soon arise how decisions are going to be made . Tord already mentioned the idea which is very much now accepted as such by a broad majority of the international council is to stage assemblies . assemblies said once like me, for instance would have to be based on regional assemblies, so the structure would be more equalitarian than in the past, 

And there is the question is if this decision-making can reach a consensus in what consist the consensus ; if it is unanimity like it has been until now ,that everybody have the possibility of a very small minority, sometimes one organisation to block everything, or if we can find a percentage, if we have the structure which involves let's say like two links : on the one hand the international council, and the other hand the assembly. 

These are discussions which are going on, without any conclusion for long time already, and we need to get to a decision in Tunis, and that's why we are having this continental dialogue that dialogue here in europe there was one Asia Africa and the Middle East also, and they will also come up with certain positions or certain opinions about the subject matter, of restructuring, that is what we should be talking about, and have some clarification on the eve of Tunis that is going to take place very soon on the 30th of November to December 3rd

1h 09mn 

@B3 Tord: yeah I'm I have always been opposing the whole idea that decisions can be made in the name of the world social forum or in the name of anybody else than who signed the statement. This is very simple and this is totally necessary for organisation to build trust in the process. 

They will never accept decision made in the name, without their acceptance of this. This is the experience we have had the money and what is now stated about consensus is confusing. There is no such thing as a new rules for deciding things at assemblies. 

But there is on the other hand a very negative aspect in terms of time-consuming and endless filibuster discussion about this issue from the other side of these factions. I've been opposing both factions from the very start, and I still do it, on the grounds of what Ole talks about : what is the need for movements? They need to have both things : they need to have efficient decision-making, and that no decisions are made in their name, and they do not need decisions made in the name of the whole WSF, that can be kept and open space.

But to make efficient statement for such thing for the main movement need, who address all the issues refugees peace climate,social justice , friends of the Earth is doing this, via campesina is doing this, international peace bureau doing this. 

For these movements they do need less discussions ,filibuster discussion, they need a clear time schedule.And that time schedule includes thematic assemblies, sufficient space. They necessarily need to go compete with each other, because it's not possible to give time for everyone, so there is no other as assembly at the same time, that is a necessity but then she should be reasonably enough time for it

When it comes to regional assembly this is really key, here it is very simple ,they don't compete with each other, it's perfect, they can have the same time spot .. and these regional thing is very good if they can develop on the more detailed level than the continental ,which has been proposed by Leo for instance. 

So with other words parallel at the same time regional things. This goes totally against the open Space concept, which is competition, competition, competition, those with money can dominate the process. Saying regional ones means that three people from central Asia might be as important as the whole Western Europe. That's totally necessary to bring in representativity at the geographic level. Of course, they will not making any decision in the name of world social forum, they make only decision on what they we discussed on their own and that would be giving a total different character to the world social forum

And then finally, for those thematic and those regions that might be interested, there can can be a final common assembly of convergence, only for those who want, and that is the possibility to enable a clear common discussion, without any attempt, saying that all assembly should be there, or all regionals, but to those movements that need to address the complexity of the whole crisis, and don't want to be part of a supermarket for progressive policies, that never converge, because they compete, and compete, and compete endlessly without various but one assembly only speaking in its own name

And then of course an agora of the world that I think Pierre has been pushing for well, but that should not compete with the general assembly. This is fully possible to decide within the world social forum thing, but for some reason, one starts discussion about consensus, or that it's impossible to have convergence, I think it's time to discuss concrete proposals, then I think is the answer to Ole’s question, that nobody answered in Florence which is instead abstract abstract abstract things Answer Ole ! 

1h14mn 

@B4 Leo Let's give let's give space to everybody. This is the proposal. What is true is that, up until now, the world social forum, as such, has prohibited itself to plan common actions, as such, Actions would only be made according to points of the charter by different organisations. What is your opinion? Should the word social forum come up .and define a round on actions with decisions on what we have called the global agenda for mobilizations, or instead should it remain like it is at the present moment. I really want everybody to give his opinion it's very important

@B5 Isabelle: Très brièvement, je pense Léo qu'il y a une différence entre que le forum ait une position commune sur les sujets du monde, où que le forum ait une volonté d'action globale. C'est juste de lancer des actions globales, à toutes les associations du forum, en lançant des actions globales par rapport à l'agenda mondial, je pense que ça pourrait être une très bonne chose, qui n'oblige pas à ce que tout le monde ait la même position. C'est ça qui est un peu difficile au Forum social mondial, mais je pense, pour donner mon avis, que ça serait vraiment bien, que à certains moments de l'année, le Conseil international appelle a toutes les associations du Forum social mondial à agir dans certains contextes qui sont des luttes internationales. Je pense que ça serait utile. J'ai fini @B5 Isabelle: Very briefly, I think Léo that there is a difference between the forum having a common position on the subjects of the world, or the forum having a will for global action. It's just to launch global actions, to all the associations in the forum, by launching global actions in relation to the global agenda, I think that could be a very good thing, which does not require that everyone has the same position. This is what is a little difficult at the World Social Forum, but I think, to give my opinion, that it would be really good if at certain times of the year, the International Council calls on all the associations of the World Social Forum to act in certain contexts which are international struggles. I think that would be useful. I'm finished   

@B6 Rosa : Explicación voy a hablar en español y va a ver interpretación. Bueno creo estoy siguiendo con atención lo que están compartiendo. Me parece que esto que dice Tord no sé si lo he entendido bien, que cada quien sea aboga por sus propios problemas en cada continente. Yo creo que el sentido de estos diálogos continentales, porque hemos hecho en Asia ,tuvimos un en norte de África de las Américas allá ahora desde Europa, pero eso nos ayuda por un lado a conocer que está pasando en cada territorio, nos acercarnos un poco más sabemos que no estamos todos por supuesto, pero es una manera de sentir a los movimientos no? la capacidad de convocatoria, y hacer está lectura crítica de esta realidad que vivimos

No se trata de que todos hagamos en cada territorio, sino que los que viven en un territorio hagan algo para este territorio, y a la vez como identificar las agendas comunes, para también visibilizar las en otros territorios, ver qué hay cosas en común, y creo que, bueno, parte, es importante que como integrantes del Consejo Internacional nos pronunciemos, creo que ya una vez hicimos un pronunciamiento donde dijimos como “las organizaciones del Consejo Internacional nos solidarizamos con tal persona, yo creo que es importante abonar al respecto, y creo que el Foro Social Mundial es un espacio en el que confluyen, y pueden confluir diferentes actores, y nos permite reconocer quién no están dentro y deberían estar, sumarse o sumarnos para defender sus banderas. bueno se diría yo brevemente; leo gracias @B6

@B6 Rosa : Explanation I am going to speak in Spanish and you will see interpretation. Well I think I am following carefully what you are sharing. It seems to me that what Tord says, I don't know if I have understood it correctly, that everyone advocates their own problems on each continent. I think that the meaning of these continental dialogues, because we have done one in Asia, we had one in North Africa of the Americas, there now from Europe, but that helps us on the one hand to know what is happening in each territory, we get a little closer We know that we are not all here of course, but it is a way of feeling the movements, right? the ability to convene, and make this critical reading of this reality that we live in It is not about all of us doing in each territory, but that those who live in a territory do something for this territory, and at the same time how to identify common agendas, to also make those in other territories visible, see that there are things in common, and I think that, well, part, it is important that as members of the International Council we pronounce ourselves, I think that once we already made a pronouncement where we said how "the organizations of the International Council sympathize with such a person", I think it is important to go in this regard, and I believe that the World Social Forum is a space in which different actors come together, and can come together, and it allows us to recognize who is not inside and should be, join or join us to defend their flags. well I would say briefly; leo thank you

1h19mn 

@B7 Leo : The basic question is now like you referred with different opinions, whether we can or we should produce common actions, and finally, if whether we should try to get some decisions on a common ground, which has been prepared by talks in convergence and so on, but if there is finally an outcome of this huge effort, of trying to organize on a global level. Is there please, tell me also, like for instance in the Kurdish network, if you can tell us what your opinion is, is there a need for such a common action scheme , Gerard what do you think about the subject , perhaps Igor, or any other, please, we have talked a lot. The floor is yours

1h21mn

@B8 Gerard : Merci Effectivement moi je crois qu'on peut quand même s'appuyer sur , il y a quand même quelque chose dont on ne parle pas, c'est que nous avons une organisation internationale qui s'appelle les nations unis, qui prend des initiatives, du moins son assemblée générale, et qui décide souvent des journées d'action ou des journées thématiques sur des grands thème, quand-même 

Et moi je pense que, si on veut des actions communes sur les migrations, les droits humains, qui se posent, on peut s'appuyer sur ces journées peut-être , ces journées onusienne peut-être, pour faire quelque chose en commun, un appel des organisations du Forum social mondial ,pour se servir de ses journées pour avancer un certain nombre de thématiques très concrètes, les droits de l'homme l'émigration peut-être ou sur d'autres choses, il y a beaucoup d'autres sujets, on peut pratiquement tout trouver dans les Nations unies, ou la question de la Journée internationale de la paix, le 21 septembre, où on pourrait faire converger un certain nombre de choses

Voilà c'est un peu, je ne sais pas si ça peut passer au sein de Forum social mondial, mais je crois qu'il faut qu'on s’appuie un peu sur sur les institutions internationales qui en ont bien besoin, parce que l'une des premières victimes de ce qui se passe actuellement dans le monde, en particulier avec la guerre en Ukraine, et les déréglementation générales, je dirais que c'est le système onusien qui en prend un sacré coup.

Voilà, donc, parce que je ne vois pas comment autrement on pourrait relier les choses, il faut donner des perspectives aux gens, en même temps. Voilà . Dans le premier temps quand Léo parlait de cessez-le-feu, je pense que en Europe par exemple il y a le cessez-le-feu effectivement qu'on pourrait avancer, mais pourquoi ne lancerions nous pas un appel aux gouvernement européens, l'Europe au sens large, je parle de l'Europe de d'Helsinki, de l'organisation pour la sécurité et la coopération européenne, en y excluant peut-être les États-Unis et le Canada , je parle vraiment des pays européens au sens large , un appell au cessez-le-feu en Europe et en Ukraine, mais aussi un appel à tous les gouvernements de ces pays là, pour que nous leur lancions l'idée de faire une grande conférence pour la sécurité et la coopération en Europe

Voilà un appel, donc quand on parle de sécurité de coopération, ça inclut beaucoup de choses en Europe, ça inclut la question militaire mais pas seulement, les questions économiques, les questions des migrations, quand on parle de sécurité ,voilà donc, ce sont des idées que je lance pour voir comment on peut prendre articuler cela avec ce qui existe au niveau institutionnel mondial dont on ne se sert pas beaucoup je dois dire

@B8 Gerard: Thank you Indeed I believe that we can still rely on , there is still something we do not talk about ,is that we have an international organization called the United Nations, which takes initiatives, at least its general assembly, and which often decides on days of action or thematic days on major themes, anyway And I think that if we want common actions on migration, human rights, which arise, we could rely on these days perhaps, these UN days perhaps, to do something in common, a call from the organizations of the World Social Forum, to use these days to advance a certain number of very concrete themes, human rights, emigration perhaps or on other things, there are many other subjects, we can almost find all in the United Nations, or the question of the International Day of Peace, September 21, where we could bring together a number of things That's a bit, I don't know if it can pass within the World Social Forum, but I think we have to rely a little on the international institutions which really need it, because one of the first victims of what is happening in the world right now, particularly with the war in Ukraine, and the general deregulations, I would say that it is the UN system that is taking a big hit. So there you have it, because I don't see how else we could connect things, we have to give people perspectives, at the same time. So . At first when Léo was talking about a ceasefire, I think that in Europe, for example, there is indeed a ceasefire that we could move forward, but why don't we launch an appeal to the European governments, the Europe in the broad sense, I am talking about the Europe of Helsinki, the Organization for European Security and Cooperation, perhaps excluding the United States and Canada, I am really talking about European countries in the in a broad sense, a call for a ceasefire in Europe and in Ukraine, but also a call to all the governments of these countries, so that we launch them the idea of ​​holding a major conference for security and cooperation in Europe That's a call, so when we talk about security cooperation, that includes a lot of things in Europe, it includes the military issue but not only, economic issues, migration issues ,when we talk about security, these are ideas that I launche, to see how we can articulate this with what exists at the global institutional level, which we do not use much I must say

1h25mn 

@B9 Pierre I am part of those who signed a text reaffirming the word social forum as an open space. I will circulate the declaration now in the chat so you can see it. 

http://openfsm.net/projects/waos/declaracion 

This is a short text that has just circulated among members of the international Council of WSF just to clarify how we look at the Future the forum. I think the questions made by Leo are not exactly the questions that we agreed upon in those discussions. Anyway I will make a little review of what is possible. 

First I would say I feel a lot of people, in the international Council we are facilitators of the open space, and as participants, we are not at the center of the space, as facilitators as we are “under” the space, we sustain the space, we try to develop it, and, as participants, it is not that because we are the facilitators, we are at the center of this space, and I think many people confuse those roles : because they are facilitators of the space, they think that they are the center of the space, and that they should speak and make things inviting the others, etc and taking a specific role. That's one point. 

The second point is that, in the Open Space, there are many possibilities that are unexplored, or underexplored. 

If we consider the self organized assemblies, that Tord has mentioned, whether they are thematic or regional or,territorial, they can be organized, as meetings, and here comes what he calls the competition, and what I call the parallelism, because at the end of a WSF event, there is a lot of parallelism. that's necessary because there is not enough time, and it's acceptable, because we are talking of organizations, so they can send delegates in different simultaneous assemblies, it's not a problem

But this is just a WSF event, this is just  assembly-meetings, and if  you want to have influence, if you want to have sway, you need to have a more constant and permanent operation, and that is where  Tord has made a proposal about making a certain assembly more permanent, having also sessions outside of the WSF event and this is perfectly possible, this is in the hands of those who are  facilitating this assembly, trying to make it more permanent,  and create something that's more than a family photo with a declaration every 2-years. 

http://openfsm.net/projects/wsfic_fsmci/mexico22-input3.9f 

So this is also a way to get to creating bodies that are able to have reactivity, make calls, look after  the implementation of the actions that are in the calls, etc have a consistency and persistence, and become visible political actors, that are multi stakeholders, with many organizations involved, with their own protocols of decisions and communication

And these bodies, they can use the forum, as Attac , or whatever organisation uses the forum. They can organize activities, if they show their multiplicity of stakeholders, they can organize assembly-meetings in the forum space, and they do exactly what they want, so that's is perfectly doable, as we have everything in the forum now

There is the third dimension, which you will see in the text of the Declaration

. It Is that you can have also such a building that pretends to become a process in itself that is linked to the process of the social forum, but is not the social forum, and  that Would become another new type of process, Exploring a new way, and that's the notion of social assemblies

So it's up to those who want to build this ; either they permanentize, sorry for this neologism, an assembly that they are starting in the forum space, which become autonomous and visible and permanent and making calls, or they want to have that, but giving this creation a more  generic “social forum “idea, and so they want to qualify to be a “social assembly”, which is not clear yet, what it is but which could be included in a broader WSF context

So the answer to leo’s question  is  1/ you can have assembly meetings in the space, 2/ you can have “permanentized” assemblies, which are outside and inside,the space, because they participate as anyone in the forum. 

Do you say that Attac is in the WSF? no, Attac is participating in the wsf, but it has its own existence. So for these “permanentized” assemblies, it is the same : they have  their own life and they use the forum, as actors and participants.

And 3/ you have this other, even more ambitious, perspective, which is building this “permanentized” assemblies as “social assemblies”. which  opens a new type of discussion . 

What is this bigger WSF context? 

At the present time, we have the world social forum Porto Alegre, we have thematic, social forums, National social forums, we have a collection of about 20 significant forums in the world. We made a meeting in September 2020, having a conversation with their respective facilitating committees. http://openfsm.net/projects/ic-extended/online-202009-ampliado2-extension 

So, what do we do with his family of processes, that are different, but they all claim to be social forums, I am just taking the occasion to explain because we have been asked to explain this idea of social assembly, so I'm explaining. So if you complete this family with a process that self locates in this family of social forum related processes. 

It's an option, it's a possibility, and we can stay with what Tord proposes, which is a permanentized assembly, that comes, from time to time, to make activities and assemblies in the forum, as would be  a permanent social movement assembly for instance 

So you have the three grades of possibilities, and for me, it's a bit surprising that people that are asking for action, for actorship, they don't invest in building search “permanentized” assemblies which is totally open, there is no no authorization to ask to anybody.

Leo thank you and from the Kurdish network the comrade has raised his hand, if you want to say something say it now, because we are already finishing

@B10 Xelil : It was on the subject like the ceasefire and situation in Kurdistan and we will have occasion to discuss it in the following days 

Leo :say what's your opinion is

Xelil well I will try to make it short, but in a such situation of aggression, from the Turkish state in north and Eastern Syria, and northern Iraq and also Attempt of occupation civilian war crimes and use of chemical weapons, Of course cease fire can be a first step but I think we can have the ambition, like different movements to solve the problem not just the consequences, but the causes and ask for a political solution for Kurdistan which at the end regroups the two propositions that were made, by first stopping the harassing of the movements in favor of a political solution and stopping this militarisation of the politics, and I think finding a political solution can be the like the Convergence those two propositions that the friends propose. thank you very much once again

Leo : you mean the word social forum can be a point of convergence if I understood you

Xelil ; No they were two propositions one made by you and one made Tord about like finding like points of convergence Like condemning the militarisation of politics, and the second one which is like stopping the harassment of the political movements

And then the friend was giving the example of Sweden, but I think by like fighting and mobilizing as the point of convergence for mobilization for finding a political solution can be the Convergence of the two propositions so one against militarization and a Second against the harassing of the political movement

@B11 Kristina: I'm not sure if this open space really will help movements to come together and to work together to move forward to a more peaceful world than we have now. And I think the time changes, it's also different time to the beginning of the social world social forum, and even to the virtual social forum in 2021, 

And I think we do not really recognise what the corona pandemics has done to all the movements, and how it has weakened, on one side the moments, on the other side has strengthened the movement because we all see that the meetings we have especially for the NO to NATO network and for IPB, I can say we work very much more internationally together, than in the times before, and also have a lot of huge event like the world conference last year in Barcelona, which are similar to world social forums events, and they are meeting a lot of people, they are working together in different networks, like Tord said in his Prague Spring Two network and me in the NO to NATO and we have discussed here by the way, how we could connect stronger our networks,

And there were a lot of proposals of what to do, especially for ceasefire and the call. These calls are existing and movements and collecting signatures and letters to the president of Mexico to really get involved to his proposal for negotiations between Ukraine and Russia, to come to a ceasefire and things like this,

And I think it is more important than only to have open space, where a lot of people are discussing and what ? To have some event? But with which relevance? if the world social forum will have a function, it should also be a political actor, and it should support all initiatives who are are working together, and also distribute the material, an not only have session and is this a good proposal or not, and this is a good analysis or not, and can we say all together yes to it or not. no, this is not I think I can do better things in my time than sit in this council, and I have no idea actually how it was elected or not, but which democratic legitimization, but this is not the discussion

 Leo ok that we are going to discuss in Tunis. I already got signs that our interpreters are quite tired,and it is also getting to the end, so there are two hands up, of Tord and Ole. please be short, so we can wrap it up 

@B12Tord : ok there is, I think, a solution. I understand the worries of both factions but we cannot discuss impossible things. 

There is no such thing as an assembly of social movement outside the world social forum. There is not one single person proposing it, in spite of Pierre saying the opposite thing, I don't propose it, and why he said I propose this, I don't understand. There is no reason whatsoever to have an assembly of social movements outside the world social forum. 

They exist already, exactly like Kristine said, world peace congress, stockholm etc etc We don't need at all something outside, it should be inside. Secondly there is no such thing as a consensus decision that is exactly destroying the possibility to get movements on board, and what is the solution is very simple : when an assembly of social movement needs to make a decision, and a small minority don't want to be included in that decision, don't include them and then we have solved the problem. IN o other words it's a non problem, but if we start talking about consensus in the ic we run into problem but it's not in assembly it is easily solved thank you

Leo Ole you'll have the last intervention

@B13 Ole I just give a very comment on things I have heard that are relevant to discuss in Tunis in regard to what we are talking about now. First of all I think we need to figure out how the world social forum can be useful for the social movements, for civil society organizations, the activists and others, and the alternative. So what can we do, if we want it to be useful, and relevant, not have another burden of an uploaded workpile already, but something that makes the work easier. 

And the second thing I think we need to discuss is how can the word social forum, with the work that under it have an impact? how we make sure that that all those initiatives discussions, campaign, strategies, that are shared, that we actually leave there, and it makes a good impact, and i think this could be the start of the discussion point, rather than this space actor kind of discussion, to figure out what will help the social movements by going there, and how can we make sure it has impact. thank you

@B14 Leo thank you that was a good point about the impact and will all know since we are participating in movements the biggest impact is action confrontation, and not only talk among ourselves, and if we get together in a formal structure which can produce this action it would be good, and that will be discussed in Tunis, and hopefully we came to some point of agreement, because so many splits are happening in the side of movements, it would be very good that we the World social forum could embrace, in the literal sense, embrace, abrazo the different kind of movements to move forward and not backward 

Thank you for your attention I'm looking forward to see many you in tunis 

@B15 Rosa Muchas gracias Leo, gracias a todos para el diálogo sin duda hay muchas cosas para seguir debatiendo, creo es un punto para el diálogo que vamos a tener en Túnez Muy importantes sus aportes y reflexiones gracias a los intérpretes a las compañeras intérpretes que estuvieron aquí, que nos ayudan a cruzar esos puentes a Teresa, Claudia Paola, a Johan, Fernanda Hebert de diferentes territorios desde Estados Unidos, Venezuela Brasil, en fin Venezuela estamos ahí. muchas gracias Leo 

Leo gracias Rosi por tu ayuda 

tchao tchao cuídense mucho

@B15 Rosa Thank you very much Leo, thank you all for the dialogue, without a doubt there are many things to continue debating, I think it is a point for the dialogue that we are going to have in Tunis Your contributions and reflections are very important. thanks to the interpreters and the fellow interpreters, who were here, they help us cross those bridges to Teresa, Claudia, Paola, Johan, Fernanda, Hebert from different territories from the United States, Venezuela Brazil, Venezuela we are there. thank you very much leo Leo thanks Rosi for your help tchao tchao take care of yourselves