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Contribution by tord in the european IC discusion group about the exchanges held in the  23rd november  meeting here http://openfsm.net/projects/wsfic_fsmci/mexico22-input3.9v
@ indicate some points that invite comments - to come  - other points possible of course-see comments here  http://openfsm.net/projects/wsfic_fsmci/mexico22-input3.9z

By Tord 24th nov 

The WSF Saga: The Kaiser, the Pope and the Troll  

Once upon a time there was a World Social Faith movement. They were so numerous and faithful that they believed they could conquer the world. They all struggled against the bad and worked for the good.  

As it often happens the faithful got less and less followers. Some even started to loose the faith in the holy World Social Faith bible. A bitter struggle lasted for two decades or so. On one side the supporters of the holy open space. @0 On the other side those that also wanted to see some common action. Both factions considered themselves to be the good and the other faction to be the bad. There was also the ugly nobodies who none ever listened to because they claimed to not belong to any of the two factions.  

In the year of 2023 on 23rd of November one more round between the opponents took place. This time in the European ring.@1 In charge was the Kaiser in Vienna. He had lost the great battle with the Pope situated in France as common in times of trouble. It concerned making the whole WSF into a movement that lived as it preached. The pope was against all this nonsense. It was against the horizontal spirit enshrined  in the WSF bible. @2 There was nothing in this bible about convergence  and even less so about political subject. Above all the Pope was against  questioning his right to be the only one representing God on earth.  Excommunicating the Kaiser was the only right thing to do.  

After his walk to Canossa on his knees @3 the Kaiser had announced to the world that he did not anymore support the idea of making WSF into a decision-making movement. But his role in the world as the peacekeeper holding state power was on the rise for the coming thousand years or so. Now the Kaiser was prepared for the last stand against the Pope and his followers @4 that believed in magic and faith rather than collective action and making decisions.  

We have to debate how consensus decisions are made he claimed. Now the troll raised his ugly face and voice. @5 What we need is rather to listen  to the Norwegian cardinal. The Norwegians have for some reason since  the 1300s a grudge against Rome and the Pope. So this cardinal continued  to raise questions concerning @6 how to make WSF relevant to movements,  a question none of the factions seemed to have an answer to.  

The problem for the open space faithful to answer the question had been exposed in Florence at a meeting celebrating the greatness of the movement in the past. The answer to the Norwegian cardinal question was here stated explicitly. This is done in two opposing ways by the WSF faithful. Two among supporters of open space stated "magic" as the way to move forward, one stated that decisions are not necessary. The Pope answers are not so much believing in miracle any more, @7 rather his solution is bureaucratic with the help of long holy interpretations of the WSF bible for just about any situation.  

The annoying troll once more claimed to have an answer to the Norwegian question. He said that @8 what was needed was more efficiency. Decisions have to be made faster, not avoided. Secondly that consensus is a non-issue as movement will never accept that decisions are made in their name. @9 What movements that already have efficient international network and gatherings need is convergence. This can be helped by WSF by a combination of thematic and regional assemblies in their own time @10 enabling a well prepared final convergence assembly. @11 The Pope claimed that such a final assembly had to be outside the WSF.  

The cardinal from India was not present during the fight on the 23 of November but her presence was felt anyway, The solution she has is similar to the Norwegian cardinal, put questions on the table. She also propose conclusions. The Indian cardinal has less of a problem with the one and only God and what is inside and what is outside. If one God wants monopoly, let's invent another.@12 So her solution is to say that a general assembly can be both inside and outside. The Troll says that the claim that the assembly@13 has to be only outside WSF is an empty statement. No movement sees a need to organize such an assembly if it is not also inside WSF as the Indian cardinal propose.  

By now the Kaiser and the Pope were exhausted once more. The Pope had a long speech, the Kaiser addressed important current political issues. The Troll from Sweden claimed that the concern of the Kaiser was legitimate. How can decisions be made when a small minority do not agree? @14 But this is only a problem if one want the International council to make decisions, not for a general or any assembly. @15 If a great majority wants to make a decision this can be made anyway by s sign-on process. @16 A permanent world social movement assembly can themselves find out how to do this in practice. To make too many decisions against the will of a minority might damage the legitimacy of the assembly, to allow a minority to block decisions too many times might damage the efficiency and make the assembly irrelevant.  

One more ring fight was over in the long struggle between the good, the bad and the ugly. The holy saints, also called interpreters, could go to rest and so their protector in Mexico.  

PS: In Sweden there is a story about three trolls in a hut in the mountains. One day one troll said "I think I heard a noise". One years passes by and the another troll says "No I did not". Now one more passes by and the third troll says "If there is going to be so much quarrel here I leave". The Norwegian version goes like this: Three trolls were together in a hut in the mountains, One day one troll said "I think I heard a noise". A hundred years passes by and the another troll says "No I did not" and the rest you know.  

Allt the best and a great hug to you all bad and good with thanks for your perseverance from the ugly troll..