I do support the idea of working together for an horizontal WSF in tunis
we dont need a new platform to do that
mariangela 



El 31/12/2013, a las 20:45, Rami Brahem escribió:

> Hello comrades,
> 
> As you know the next WSF will happen in Tunis, and i really hope to see all of you coming back for the event so that we can all catch out.
> 
> Making the WSF horizontal though is something that would be just amazing.
> What fears me is that the last time we spent energy trying to make the local organisation more horizontal before the event, it was more or less a wasted energy that ended ups that we were being attacked as an organisation in Tunis by several people who saw their interest being menaced.
> 
> By now, i'd support & participate as much i can on such actions & calls, and i'm available on 6 January.
> It would be entirely possible to organize horizontal stuff here while the event indeed, but besides, i really have no clue about my participation inside the local organisation in Tunis because the bad experiences that came out the previous time (again, i don't speak about the event but about the efforts we made far before the WSF inside the local organisation).
> 
> As a side note, the call as you writed it Orsan looks fine to me.
> 
> Le 31/12/2013 14:00, Chapullers OrsanS a écrit :
>> Dear Rami, Marita, Mikfus and all,
>> 
>> There is still silence and no one is taking the initiative. We all are
>> doing other things and may be waiting for something. Yet, I really
>> think we have to move so wish to proceed and see what will happen with
>> the below draft call.
>> 
>> Of course anyone is more than welcome to contribute and participate,
>> change, and modify the idea rewrite from the scretch. In case there
>> comes no response or alternative initiative.
>> 
>> I would like to launch the event on facebook at the end of this week
>> at around 6 January. Looking forward to get any feedback and possible
>> collaboration
>> 
>> wishing all a rEvolutionary 2014!
>> Orsan
>> 
>> 
>> World rEvolution Forum - WrEF
>> 
>> What?
>> WrEF is a forum that is open to all individuals. It is an idea and
>> invitation to all to get together and collaborate as individuals
>> either as part of collectives, groups, unions, parties so on or not,
>> by using any online and face-to face means and tools in order to link
>> the plans, activities and actions and build a great waves of good,
>> oppressed and struggling peoples. The overall aim is to stop and move
>> beyond the disasterous and elitist political and economic system that
>> has been destroying the planet and that is rapidly turning into a
>> global tiranny! The concept is a rEvolutionary fork to World Social
>> Forum (WSF). So it is about building a space much more social,
>> inclusive and horizontal than the WSF had been; with open and free
>> grassroots participation in every tasks at the individual level rather
>> than having representational and organisational leadership and
>> participation criteria. The idea is open to all individuals from any
>> backgrounds, party, hackers, union.. so on also in terms of forming or
>> linking nodes, thinking and doing organisational, visioning or other
>> relevant tasks.
>> 
>> This first mumble call is a kick off event that aims to launch an open
>> eneded and totally distributed world rEvolution forum on the 19
>> January while countering the the elitist World Economic Forum (WEF)
>> which will meet in Davos on the 22 January 2014. The same kind of
>> confrontation was appeared as a strong meme created originally by the
>> WSF when it was launched first time more than a decade ago. The agenda
>> of the call is open within this framework.
>> 
>> When?
>> Date:  19 January 2014
>> Time: 14:00 PM (UK time)
>> 
>> Where?
>> Mumble Server: Occupy Talk
>> Label : Occupii
>> Server : occupytalk.org (has to be written exactly as it is)
>> Port: 64738
>> Channel: WrEF
>> Nickname: Your name/nick
>> 
>> How to join?
>> http://www.global-square.net/how-to-join/
>> 
>> What else I can do?
>> If you can't or prefer not to use internet or Mumble software, then we
>> encourage all inividuals and groups to either organise their own
>> events, or send us link and information about the relevant events (of
>> real democracy, equality, freedom, solidarity, global revolution,
>> uprisings and or local/national/international mobilisations) which are
>> already planned for 2014. We will try to create an collaboratory and
>> open directory, maps and time tables that would include these
>> information sent so all can use it and easily spread around the globe
>> in all the languages.
>> .
>> 
>> On 18 December 2013 18:18, Rami Brahem <rami.brahem@...> wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>> 
>>> Thanks again Mikifus for the links they are very interesting to me !
>>> Thanks aswell Orsan for being you.
>>> & Thanks Sol & Piran for the interesting links.
>>> 
>>> I think it would be nice to meet.
>>> About the ideas presented on the n-1 page, i have some updates aswell from
>>> projects being build in France. They are several groups working on the same
>>> ideas, but the problem is that they have different visions: from a "virtual
>>> assembly" to "decentralized com system", & from how to take decisions (vote,
>>> consent, etc).
>>> 
>>> I think the idea is the good one, meaning about doing a system instead the
>>> system, but this is in my point of view not only about an internet tool, but
>>> also about the mechanisms of such a system.
>>> Besides, there is some work that was done, some of them from people that
>>> participated to make n-1, like a study on the existent tools, and also
>>> several softwares created or being prepared.
>>> 
>>> In my opinion, the real problem is the lack of holoptism & the difficulties
>>> to understand the parameters of collective decision, but it's a big subject
>>> & i wouldn't enter there right now.
>>> Anyway, there is lot of good stuff being done everywhere in the world right
>>> now, & we're all going to the same topics.
>>> 
>>> About GS, it would be nice to catch & meet. Even just having some
>>> discussions. I know that we have all agendas that are already full though,
>>> and as you said, all involved in local & international struggles that let us
>>> with few time to manage other stuff.
>>> This is also one of the problems that occurs previously.
>>> Also, the international meetings like Agoras were meant for Europe i think,
>>> anyway a bit closed from other countrys especially the ones in Africa cause
>>> the methods they used to communicate (i couldn't participate as eg. with the
>>> phone conferences from Tunisia).
>>> 
>>> We return there to the meaning of globalsquare, what we want to do. I mean,
>>> all the ideas converge to something, lot of projects are going on
>>> everywhere, we're involved in so much so what would be the point ?
>>> Personnaly, i'm pretty sure we can work out some things really good, but i'm
>>> not sure that we will all be equally interested as we have different
>>> priorities, and as some projects that are related may already be in the go.
>>> 
>>> The re-evaluation of what we did is something that is in my opinion
>>> important to do, but again, it depends on the investment of everyone. I
>>> mean, if most of us have few time & few interest to GS compared to their
>>> other activities, then it would be useless to spend too much time on this.
>>> Anyway it looks like that we need to discuss.
>>> 
>>> Anyway i'll be really glad to meet again or just speak again with all.
>>> I wish you all great energy for all that you are doing.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Le 18/12/2013 09:53, Chapullers OrsanS a écrit :
>>>> Ok Rami, I see your very good points and agree with most of them. Still I
>>>> think starting from somewhere mid october or november last year, if i
>>>> remember correctly we had series of long mumble meetings to prepare for
>>>> tunis. Yet you are right about the hurry and little time we had we had to
>>>> start before May be. The responsibility however had been on all of us and we
>>>> could have work out more practical solutions. May be because of the time all
>>>> had to spend on local level struggles and many other things it was difficult
>>>> to make enough time to talk about all the important issues and deliver
>>>> proper and well structured agendas and meetings. Yet I think that was part
>>>> of an very important experiment and learning process and we may now have
>>>> more experience and be able manage to make things better. I appoligize again
>>>> of my reaction and misunderstanding, and appreciate too with the sincere
>>>> communication! of course I also have huge respect to you your work and
>>>> fight.
>>>> 
>>>> In terms of giving more explanation of draft ideas I persented on the n-1
>>>> page, in respons to anonymous call for worldwide wave of actions #www  (it
>>>> is really an anonymous call I don't have any clue how made it, yet really
>>>> liked it). So I just added some more thoughts for instance to initiate a
>>>> preparatory form with longer and large spaces in it, similar to those of
>>>> which take the square experimented on IRC chat in 2011. I thought of a name
>>>> Worldwide rEvolutionary Forum, since it is needed to make clear that it is
>>>> about revelution and evolution at the same time and it is about ' going
>>>> beyond' the WSF., like instead of meeting in one place as WSF does, and
>>>> invite all organisations, collecting and spending lots of money, for ony 4-5
>>>> days of meetings, where most of the time same group of people meets again
>>>> and deiver closed meetings of which agenda and outcome is already prepared,
>>>> I tried to collect the ideas I heard from Carminsa, Jasper, Vica, Shawn and
>>>> many others during our discussion and so on. I believe we need to try to
>>>> think of something totally decentralised, make everything open and
>>>> connected. So a preparatory and very experimental forum that might last
>>>> between 2-3 months and during the these times information and networks would
>>>> have more time to get connected each other, share preperations and results,
>>>> with deeper conversations. These are not at all about calling all to to some
>>>> thing new, different than what they already do, or decided somewhere else,
>>>> but call for bringing things in one window to out open to world to seem so
>>>> to give visibility and feeleing of connectedness. These ideas I think
>>>> corrsponds with many points you have rised. and it is not a finished and
>>>> serious call at all. Just tring to communicate and concretise ideas like,
>>>> hacking WSF, visioning a Global Square in another form, so on I have tried
>>>> to put them to gether and before doing so I did email it to the tts list
>>>> begin November.
>>>> 
>>>> If you and any other would have an interest to discuss these I propose to
>>>> make finally the mumble call proposed by Marita, and prepare together an
>>>> agenda and start a new round of open spaces which we would form and improve
>>>> from the scratch.
>>>> 
>>>> Let's use this pad to start preparing a first call to start moving:
>>>> http://titanpad.com/mumblemeetingpreparation
>>>> 
>>>> we already have some updates to make, from Rome Agora99, and may be from
>>>> Bockupy conf. as well as, from countries. so on. Yet it can also be a just
>>>> couple of our as you suggest, with groups, for example  to reevaluate 2011
>>>> till today.
>>>> 
>>>> In any case I Hope all would like to meet up again soon
>>>> Solidarity, orsan
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On 16 December 2013 23:33, Rami Brahem <rami.brahem@...> wrote:
>>>>> Hello Orsan,
>>>>> 
>>>>> As you're not precize at all about what bothered you in the skype
>>>>> message, i
>>>>> still don't get what was my exact mystake... I didn't felt agressive, i
>>>>> may
>>>>> be wrong but we would be nice to hear was the exact problem to learn from
>>>>> it.
>>>>> Also, i'm sorry if it did disturbed you. you should know i appreciate you
>>>>> very much Orsan & i have an huge respect for you. I didn't meant to hurt
>>>>> you
>>>>> in anyway, but just to share what i was thinking.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Also, i'd like to point out another thing: making mystakes should be
>>>>> celebrate !
>>>>> Making mystakes & recognizing them is the way we evolve, and it is the
>>>>> conditionning from a system based on competition that makes us hate &
>>>>> comdamn the mystakes in my opinion.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I'd like to share that what you pointed was a part of my frustration in
>>>>> GS
>>>>> that we didn't spoke on all of this !  "too little time", "too little
>>>>> speaks", etc... I asked several times to share about our experiences, to
>>>>> learn from them, to share all our methods & learn from all of us.
>>>>> It just never happened enough. I even tryed to gather few of us to speaks
>>>>> about this specifically, just because we couldn't do it during the
>>>>> assemblies enough... Is it really bad ? I don't see how.. oO
>>>>> 
>>>>> I don't understand why the ego push one to make a competition between
>>>>> these
>>>>> stuff. Personnaly, i see what i've learned, and i'm opened to admit
>>>>> anything
>>>>> wrong why learning more from the others.
>>>>> I could feel frustrated though, when i don't find the space to actually
>>>>> share enough and i guess this is the whole point...
>>>>> 
>>>>> Honestly, i feel a judgement in your words that is quite disturbing.
>>>>> There
>>>>> is no need to apply any judgement on the others. Each one have
>>>>> experiences &
>>>>> it's all about understanding each others. I was never close to understand
>>>>> the others personnaly, and i just feel it's unfair when not being
>>>>> listened
>>>>> or when i don't feel i got any reply to my questions, which i guess it's
>>>>> normal as i listen carefully to the others.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think these discussions here are interesting though, and i'd like to
>>>>> reply
>>>>> more precisely to one of your sentence, hoping it won't stop marita to
>>>>> reply
>>>>> to my previous questions aswell.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> " If you wan't to see 'us'  forming one group to build and concretise
>>>>> plans
>>>>> and then we identify with that group, I wouldnt be there my self, and if
>>>>> you
>>>>> think I proose that, please don't join in. I think, doesn't matter how
>>>>> horizontal that groups works, which best method of horizontality that
>>>>> groups
>>>>> uses, it would make no sens in terms of collective intelligence and open
>>>>> horizontality. "
>>>>> 
>>>>> I disagree here with you in a part, and you are missunderstading me in an
>>>>> other part.
>>>>> First of all, i never meant anyone to identify with a group that is owned
>>>>> by
>>>>> previous people. And further, any group open or not begin with less
>>>>> people &
>>>>> then grows up. I think the main point is about not having anyone having
>>>>> more
>>>>> power than the others, being old or new, & to accept to evolve.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Then, you speak about collective intelligence again. Collective
>>>>> intelligence
>>>>> is a discipline that is about the parameters of synergy & the forms of
>>>>> organisations. There is collective intelligence even in the pyramidal
>>>>> forms.
>>>>> So it makes no sense to me to say "it makes no sens in terms for
>>>>> collective
>>>>> intelligence".
>>>>> If you're asking about having the "best" collective intelligence, then
>>>>> quantity or the fact to be open isn't everything there, and more, the
>>>>> spirit
>>>>> of the group or the harmony is an important point there...
>>>>> 
>>>>> Then you speak about "open horizontality". Again, this is undefined. 5
>>>>> people can be horizontal and what does it means to be "open"?
>>>>> Please, dont get me AGAIN the wrong way. My point is more about: "what we
>>>>> are doing right now ? Does that concern everyone ?"
>>>>> 
>>>>> As an exemple, should i have a consensus with my neighbour on how i
>>>>> should
>>>>> arrange my living room? Should a people in Tunis should decide for a
>>>>> people
>>>>> of sidi bou zid how they should manage their city ?
>>>>> That's just about decentralisation: decisions that concern us is taken by
>>>>> us, decisions that concern you is decided by you.
>>>>> Another point is: Are we always taking a decision ?
>>>>> If we work to prepare proposals, they are not decisions yet.
>>>>> Again, another point is: If i work & then gives my work as open source
>>>>> work
>>>>> for everyone, am i wrong to begin to work before calling everyone to
>>>>> participate ?
>>>>> 
>>>>> As an exemple, if i want to make a great open source software that would
>>>>> allow to switch on all streaming TVs & channels easyly so that i don't
>>>>> have
>>>>> to follow X different links, someone gather for me all the streaming
>>>>> assemblies links & i have all of it on one TV link, & then i just give it
>>>>> for free without owning anything is bad ?
>>>>> 
>>>>> I personnaly think that there is spaces that have a reason to be. A call
>>>>> is
>>>>> about saying: "ok we are motivated to makes X that concern all of us, so
>>>>> everyone is welcome & we are all equal".
>>>>> 
>>>>> In that sentence, there is several stuff: "Who are this "we"? " Are you
>>>>> everyone ?! Being honest is in my point of view the best :"We are X
>>>>> number
>>>>> of people from there & there, we gathered because of this, & we'd like to
>>>>> do
>>>>> that because tatata".
>>>>> 
>>>>> So, this X number of people didn't had the right to meet & share ?! They
>>>>> necessarly meet before at some point & the moment they make a call is
>>>>> just
>>>>> about them, like it or not.
>>>>> 
>>>>> In my point of view, as soon these people didn't decide anything that
>>>>> concerned the ohers, they didn't spoke in the others name or used them
>>>>> without concent, they're free to do whatever they want.
>>>>> When i comes in, if i find that they work with consensus & non
>>>>> hierachical,
>>>>> they accept to make the rules evolve, and they are transparent, it's fine
>>>>> for me.
>>>>> More, if they already offers lot of work as tools, networks, ressources,
>>>>> or
>>>>> whatever, i'll say "oh Great ! Huge ! you're awesome !".
>>>>> I'll certainly not say to them :"Pff you did this all alone without
>>>>> calling
>>>>> the entire world you're bad & not open".
>>>>> 
>>>>> Besides, there is stuff that MUST be ENTIRELY OPEN (still my point of
>>>>> view...)
>>>>> As an exemple, no one can decide for the others what they will do for
>>>>> their
>>>>> city. So they must call an open assembly & say: "We're making an open
>>>>> assembly for the citizens to get the direct control over our cities".
>>>>> Then, it would be totaly wrong indeed to get things another way.
>>>>> So, again, all of this is about WHY we're calling people.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Still, that WHY needs to be clear in my opinion...
>>>>> As i pointed out, this precise question was not clear in GS. It was
>>>>> totally
>>>>> improvised by people in the same spirit who wanted to do things togethers
>>>>> in
>>>>> the WSF, it could have just stopped there after the WSF. When we decided
>>>>> to
>>>>> meet again, we never decided all togethers exactly why, neither how.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Also, you're speaking like all humans were perfect and time don't exists.
>>>>> Unfortunatly, there is actually a problem of time, and lot of conformism
>>>>> in
>>>>> this earth, even in the "horizontal" people.
>>>>> When you begins with a process, lot of people tends to not change it
>>>>> because
>>>>> they fear anything new.
>>>>> 
>>>>> So actually defining clearly a way to makes the rules & strategy evolve,
>>>>> &
>>>>> how, looks to me far more open & fair, than saying that you need
>>>>> consensus &
>>>>> letting no clear spaces, process, or time, to makes the rules or the
>>>>> strategy evolve.
>>>>> It allows only tiniest changes, or no change, the things that will always
>>>>> go
>>>>> on are the most obvious things like :"everyone is great, we must link
>>>>> togethers, austerity is bad, power to the people, let's struggle".
>>>>> But if anyones comes with anything that would need deep discussions, he
>>>>> won't find the space, the time, any process, to have a real chance to do
>>>>> so.
>>>>> 
>>>>> As i see it right now, if he works on his part all alone it will be: "NO,
>>>>> you can't work on your way & then comes with such a proposal". If he
>>>>> comes
>>>>> to the others to say: "I would be cool to do this", it will be always an
>>>>> objection like: "I think that it is too away are we're doing now & we
>>>>> don't
>>>>> have time for this, or whatever."
>>>>> If he decide to do a project he have in his heart on his side because he
>>>>> want it anyway & find it useful, then he gathers a group horizontaly that
>>>>> wants to work in the same project, then they succeed & comes back to the
>>>>> precious people it will be: "Oh great ! what you did was amazing thanks
>>>>> you,
>>>>> it is actually useful."
>>>>> 
>>>>> At a point, this make no sense to block people without a clear, exact
>>>>> reason
>>>>> of why you block them. Did they decide something at your place ?! or not
>>>>> ?!
>>>>> 
>>>>> More, any problem have a solution using collective intelligence & having
>>>>> time to solve it.
>>>>> As ethnologists pointed out, in the art of palabra "consensus ancestral
>>>>> african assemblies" there is a philosophy:  "To any problem correspond
>>>>> one
>>>>> just solution and only one , the entire object of the discussion is to
>>>>> find
>>>>> it: not to invent it but to discover it.
>>>>> The individuals have, on reality, a partial point of view, ..., at the
>>>>> moment where it pops up, the debate stops; all further discussion would
>>>>> be
>>>>> useless.
>>>>> The just solution, is the one that is the most favorable to the happyness
>>>>> of
>>>>> all the community, .., as soon it raise, the one who would continue to
>>>>> oppose would reveal that he prefers his individual interest among the
>>>>> general interest".
>>>>> 
>>>>> Our problem, imo, is that we lives in a world of stress & lack of time.
>>>>> We
>>>>> lives always with "deadlines" & "timelimits". Sometimes, we speak a lot,
>>>>> about things that are less important for most people while ignoring
>>>>> things
>>>>> that are really important for another one. We can speaks a lot & then, we
>>>>> must take a decision in a hurry, ignoring most people, getting only the
>>>>> last
>>>>> stuff.
>>>>> 
>>>>> People that are actually the less fearless & opened let goes things more
>>>>> than conformist people who have fears. These ones are the ones who decide
>>>>> when we don't have the time to discuss enough to let no one frustrated.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I personnaly never blame anyone, i just say that the time is a very
>>>>> important parameter, and that having a space when you can more discuss is
>>>>> quite a good thing. I don't think this is in any way opposed to the idea
>>>>> of
>>>>> being opened. I think it is all about clear transparent spaces, time, &
>>>>> never decide for the others.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Le 16/12/2013 21:15, Chapullers OrsanS a écrit :
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Rami, I don't want to bother others on the list more with this topic,
>>>>> or
>>>>> at least personal misunderstanding or miscommunication, yet I think there
>>>>> are some useful points coming out of the emails sent to point out.
>>>>> 
>>>>> First shortly responding to your point: Basically I do agree that the
>>>>> kind
>>>>> of expression, like in your last email, is much better than first sending
>>>>> an
>>>>> aggressive reaction through skype and then send a calmer but sharp email
>>>>> to
>>>>> the list to make a very short statement. I think that was as wrong as my
>>>>> agressive return. My english is not very good as well, and I think it is
>>>>> not
>>>>> only about English or cultural difference.
>>>>> Disagreement I have with your approach or your core understanding/critic
>>>>> of
>>>>> the way 'calls' made or 'initiatives' are taken, and how do they get
>>>>> resenance, evolve, echo, or get no reaction at all... might be
>>>>> fundamental
>>>>> in the collective intelligence or new reality.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think value of local and hoizontal work on specific or general issues
>>>>> and
>>>>> struggles are very important and you claim that that is forgotten or
>>>>> found
>>>>> unimportant, or at least seems like you think it is the highest time to
>>>>> remind it when to talk about horizontality. I think like Occupy camps,
>>>>> 15M
>>>>> neigbourhood assemblies all vwere signifying the importance given by
>>>>> masses
>>>>> of people, who joined in the uprisings and assemblies or networks
>>>>> afterwards
>>>>> to the local and more concnetrated work.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It is nice to see you after some time found time to ask these obvious
>>>>> questions to people who you know more than a year, met in Tunisia, did
>>>>> assembly... who were at Sol and knew all story from the beginning.
>>>>> Doesn't
>>>>> matter how late I appreciate that you have asked these questions, and
>>>>> that
>>>>> would also be very good to hear from you how did it start and evolved in
>>>>> Tunisia as well. I realise that, and remember every time when we gather
>>>>> either in Tunis, or online, to exchange on these core information in
>>>>> countries adn uprisings, you were the one getting frustrated and asked
>>>>> 'if
>>>>> are we only going to meet and exhange and made dlear that it is not
>>>>> useful
>>>>> at all!! So didn't make or find time to ask you and others in Tunis,
>>>>> these
>>>>> obvious questions. Don't know may be others did. So this is kind of an
>>>>> exchange we needed at first and as you see, at least this came up as a
>>>>> result of lots of people who doenst know each other and they are not at
>>>>> all
>>>>> 'us'  it can be very usefull, might not be an empty or undepth talk. Do
>>>>> you
>>>>> see my point?
>>>>> 
>>>>> What I think was lying under my harsh, and out of control reply to your
>>>>> actually skype message. was firstly about this.
>>>>> 
>>>>> But also another fundamental issue we see different. We had, and have
>>>>> been
>>>>> confronting this issue, in general during and after the mass uiprisings,
>>>>> and
>>>>> then following assemblies, as well as networking at national and
>>>>> international levels, with or without online tools. It is related to what
>>>>> you have been calling 'mistake', 'same mistakes all the time', 'amateur',
>>>>> 'you woulnd't do that',... so on is an interesting point that I find
>>>>> wrong
>>>>> basically.
>>>>> If you meant the mistake made in the history, by the calls launched by
>>>>> sole
>>>>> left group, click, sect, or fraction, so aclosed groups of anarchist,
>>>>> communist, revolutionary, socialist, what ever then I would agree
>>>>> totally.
>>>>> But I don't see anything related to this when you address me. I am not a
>>>>> part of any one single group, or organisation at all. I think we may and
>>>>> do
>>>>> all join many networks, yet we do refuse identifying with singe one of
>>>>> them,
>>>>> we collaborate and work with all networks we have ties, and by relying
>>>>> and
>>>>> staying honest only our own principles and believes. So can stay and
>>>>> participate as individual and collaborate intensly and act in
>>>>> collectives.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The calls, or blogs, or n-1 pages you see are expressions, linked tomany
>>>>> other ones, can be thought of as political art. Most of the time they are
>>>>> amateur, enthesuiast and crap may be, but they are shared, open, meshed
>>>>> and
>>>>> open ended. Non of them are original or with patent. If you wan't to see
>>>>> 'us'  forming one group to build and concretise plans and then we
>>>>> identify
>>>>> with that group, I wouldnt be there my self, and if you think I proose
>>>>> that,
>>>>> please don't join in. I think, doesn't matter how horizontal that groups
>>>>> works, which best method of horizontality that groups uses, it would make
>>>>> no
>>>>> sens in terms of collective intelligence and open horizontality. I think
>>>>> DRY
>>>>> is a perfect good example, or Adbusters, you should read with focus and
>>>>> study how ithey were born and coused big events, and what happened to
>>>>> them
>>>>> after and the evnts they triggered afterwards.. there are lots of lessons
>>>>> to
>>>>> learn in these examples, and of course for all of us, very much including
>>>>> myself .
>>>>> 
>>>>> There are some recent discoveries for me, in this sense, to study. I hope
>>>>> might be helpful to others as well:
>>>>> 
>>>>> First one is another book, from a friend you might know her. She involved
>>>>> in
>>>>> first the Global Square project, she is Heather Marsh (am not sure she
>>>>> might
>>>>> be on this list as well), it is a free book in english:
>>>>> Binding Chaos: http://georgiebc.wordpress.com/category/binding-chaos/
>>>>> 
>>>>> a this interesting project aclled P2PValue, a software similar to Global
>>>>> Square but more about a platform to build things collaboratively, so goes
>>>>> beyond p2p network between assemblies and activists.
>>>>> 
>>>>> and Rami, good luck with your struggles as well.. May be we are not there
>>>>> but they are also our struggles!
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 14 December 2013 18:45, Rami Brahem <rami.brahem@...> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I think you missunderstood me but whatever. I may have been not with the
>>>>>> good way to express my view but please remember english is not as easy
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> me than for you.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> What i wanted to express is that, for me, doing a bilan will re-do imo
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> same mystakes. Sounds like a basic to me.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> About large groups or little groups, this is not what i meant aswell. It
>>>>>> was anyway a little group that begun an assembly with 15M movement with
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> great patern of action that was clear & easy to reproduce. It was also
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> same patern for Occupy, Tunisia, etc.
>>>>>> These groups did prepared themselves & then they explained to everyone
>>>>>> their methods to allow everyone to be inspired to redo the same thing or
>>>>>> improve it  & link with the others.
>>>>>> About my article, it's about a certain public that have no clue about
>>>>>> horizontality or auto-gestion, meant to let them get their own
>>>>>> experiences
>>>>>> instead of saying to them :"come here! we have the solution !"
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I'm not saying we have to stay as a little group, i just say that in my
>>>>>> opinion, it's better to be prepared togethers to be more efficient.
>>>>>> Creating
>>>>>> harmony is just for me a way to better welcome any newcomer & to let him
>>>>>> feel good qith the less frustrations & aware of everything easier.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It's not imo deciding for the others, as our movements as i see them
>>>>>> will
>>>>>> always accept to be evolutive & never force anyone to anything, as they
>>>>>> always should allow anyone to do proposals, even to change the process
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> everything.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Collective intelligence is several forms aswell, & i think that the best
>>>>>> synergy comes with harmony. When we make a big assembly, no one can
>>>>>> really
>>>>>> express himself deeply.
>>>>>> That's why i find it nice to do sub-groups creating more deeper
>>>>>> discussions, & then, in another moment, regroup all of us in an assembly
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> decide togethers.
>>>>>> This way helps to get everyone expressing himself entirely in my point
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> view.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I don't understand why you felt offended, i didn't judge you, i'm just
>>>>>> saying how i see the things should go. I may indeed be wrong, & i thank
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> to be sincere but please let me also express myself as i think.
>>>>>> And please,  just as you have the entire right to disagree, i do have it
>>>>>> aswell.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Besides, apparently, you have the feeling that i'm closed minded or
>>>>>> whatever. Personnaly, i never forced anyone to anything. I never slowed
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> others & accepted to be ignored when it was the case understanding that
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> others have the right to have other priorities or understandings.
>>>>>> I also never insisted in any way in any meeting or here by repeating
>>>>>> myself & did let thinks go on even i did disagree to not create long
>>>>>> discussions that could have disturbed the others.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So when you finally express something & get a :" you're just critize
>>>>>> since
>>>>>> you came & never did anything else saying your view is the best". It is
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> judgement on a specific person, based on nothing, & really with a LOT of
>>>>>> INJUSTICE.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> When a person actually want to express his view on how he thinks the
>>>>>> organisation could be more efficient, you do have the right to disagree,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> i don't see your point on such a reaction, and honestly, it don't gives
>>>>>> any
>>>>>> motivation to participate or express a view.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I think that if you have a problem, you can express simply: "I feel
>>>>>> offended by this because X & i think Y". I would say: "Oh ok sorry i
>>>>>> meant
>>>>>> Z, it was not about you, etc, I agree that this could have not be
>>>>>> precize or
>>>>>> whatever."
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Anyway, i still thanks everyone for their work that is still precious, i
>>>>>> hope the best for Globalsquare, & good luck with your stuggles Orsan.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Le 14/12/2013 13:41, Orsan a écrit :
>>>>>>> Apologies I first read the Skype messages you sent and that sounded to
>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>> aggressive as well, then read your email there I also felt offended.
>>>>>>> I think you make good points on which I may agree but also there are
>>>>>>> things in your article you circulated before and analysis of which I
>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>> agree with you in main lines, like doing revolution, forming a small
>>>>>>> group
>>>>>>> and expand to the world. About the call like #www for 2014, it is not
>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>> call, it is an anonymous call I read and liked so reproduced, that is
>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>> stated on the call text. Gnunion idea is another thing I was working on
>>>>>>> intensively since 2010 and it is an evolving experiment, it is also not
>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>> idea in essence, result of many exchanges, networking! historical
>>>>>>> experiences and collective thinking. May be not coming from a small
>>>>>>> group
>>>>>>> tightly connected and try to expand and welcome outsiders. This sound
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>> close to the older way of working to me. The collective intelligence
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> refer doesn't require affinity groups and every individual can take
>>>>>>> initiative to my understanding of new paradigm.  Would be good to talk
>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>> this all together anyway everybody has own opinions.
>>>>>>> Hope to talk soon, Orsan
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 13 dec. 2013, at 18:44, Rami Brahem <rami.brahem@...> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> "especially thanks to Marita was suggesting and since the beginning
>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>> thing you do is critzying all the other ways of houzontality than your
>>>>>>>> wat
>>>>>>>> and claiming that you know about the best one.. Join in maritas call
>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>> and share with others what you had prepared with collective
>>>>>>>> intelligente"
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> You're becoming really agressive.
>>>>>>>> I think everyones is doing a great job..
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I didn't say i had "the best one", i just made a bilan & i think we
>>>>>>>> would gain to see what went good or not, while giving my point of
>>>>>>>> view, so
>>>>>>>> please don't deform my words.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I made concrete proposals, & first of all, a bilan to see the positive
>>>>>>>> &
>>>>>>>> the negative. I think i tryed to give both on my mails.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Besides, you created a n-1 group, so i don't think this is just about
>>>>>>>> giving ideas but also to launch a group ?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I'm sorry you take this the bad way Orsan, maybe it's due to cultural
>>>>>>>> differencies & the difficulty of express myself in english but
>>>>>>>> whatever, i
>>>>>>>> still thx everyone for their efforts & i'll just not react anymore or
>>>>>>>> express my views.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Bye.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Le 13/12/2013 18:38, Orsan Senalp a écrit :
>>>>>>>>> especially thanks to Marita was suggesting and since the beginning
>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>> thing you do is critzying all the other ways of houzontality than
>>>>>>>>> your wat
>>>>>>>>> and claiming that you know about the best one.. Join in maritas call
>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>> and share with others what you had prepared with collective
>>>>>>>>> intelligente!
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Archive:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> http://openfsm.net/projects/2011movements-fsm-wsf/lists/2011movements-fsm-wsf-discussion/archive/2013/12/1386956873140
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email with subject "unsubscribe" to
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>>>>>>>> questions.
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>>>>>>> Archive:
>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Archive:
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>>>>> Archive: http://openfsm.net/[…]/1387225096382
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