Hi Mark, Rami and Marita, thanks for the responses and feed backs.

First as reply to Mark, I think after three years of picking up a date
to mobilise globally to demand of for- the new forms of transnational
democratic governance we have experienced emough abour the limitations
of that kind of work. Mostly it was about messy months and weeks of
actions with not many people joining. Instead of repeating that
experience it might be a high time to build real and continuous ties
-on a more solid base for not vertical and hierarchical but open,
egalitarian and horizontal- for and between spaces of skill exchange,
learning and decision making. This would mean actually building and
linking those new model direct democracy at local, national, regional
and international levels. Now probably the urgent need is not to have
a date for mobilisation for that but actually creating larger global
open and hoizontal space to nit stronger ties among existing ones. I
agree Marita, Agora99, Hub  meetings, Blockupy, WSF we have gained a
massive experience, yet they limited with Europe. So as response to
you:
Global Square ideas both p2p software -Heather, Pedro, Jerome and
other comrades involved, and grounded one we experienced both were
very good and invaluable in terms of linking European and
non-Eureopan. Also helped a lot to make ties among examples so both
GSs were about building links between the actual experiences on such
new model democracies. Yet all involved in second GS, expressed that
it was about wsf 2013 and nothing more, and it full filled its
mission. Although there were repeated invitations (by you) not many
people responded positively.
And Rami, I see you understand this is about WSF in Tunis, and I agree
that it was and is diffcult to transform WSF from inside towards more
horizontal entity is extremely energy spending, difficult but yet
worthy. Because of the points I mention below I believe that it might
be very helpful to create an independent space (a fork -another WSF)
base on only our experineces and networks would be much more helpful
for WSF to transform itself as well. As I said the invitation for the
19th, can be rewritten from the scratch, we could decide to move
further as Global Square, so nothing is decided. There were several
reasons why this initiative appeared as it is.

 - There is no WSF this year, Tunis will be in 2015 and Quebec is 2016.
 -There will be USSF and looks like will be more open and horizontal
so can be engaged with but it is end of the year.
 - Looking at what has been happening around NSA, Prism, Sonowden, but
also Egypt, Turkey, Syria,.. one can see that the inter elite struggle
is getting more violent and fierce we might not have chance to even
see 2015 and 2016.
- there is also a very good anonymous call for worldwide wave of
actions (#www), that very much sounds like human waves in Spain, so
could resonate and create a large scale vision to actually link all
autonomous actions and mobilisations as worldwide human waves, then we
need to think of where those waves will lead. Either October 15, or
November 5 in form of Marea Grande
- That's why we need to start as soon as possible at least to give our
2011-2013 experience more concrete form as internationally connected
squares, assemblies (or forums - Marita term forum is used instead of
assembly that was the reason it is not mentioned but it is all about
assembly-forum of individuals)
- WrEF name comes from the 'open space forums'  for world revolution'
we did after Gezi and Brazil, having direct reference to revolutionary
(and evolutionary) stand more obvious, instead of reference to
'social' alone as WSF, WrEF sounds better I believe.
As for moving forward as 'Global Square' and working on
horizontalizing WSF, we might talk about it and decide individually on
this together as well as all other points and ides I believe. I am not
so hopefully about the as Rami. Yet this work if succeed will
definitely make a bigger impact on WSF to brake its barriers from
inside I believe.
- WrEF name is also about to re-confront the WEF in Davos, which was
actually how WSF started but this tradition is left on the way.
- about the parties, I agree with you so we might not mention at all
just say any type of organisations.

So If you are OK I would take out the party term from the text, but
for the moment in terms of limited time and timing about the WEF, I
would keep it as WrEF, instead of GlobalSquare. In case people who
would join the call want to discuss and agrees on, we would of course
re-frame and re-name it.

what do you think?
Orsan


On 1 January 2014 13:16, marita <maciacia50@...> wrote:
> I do support the idea of working together for an horizontal WSF in tunis
> we dont need a new platform to do that
> mariangela
>
>
>
> El 31/12/2013, a las 20:45, Rami Brahem escribió:
>
>> Hello comrades,
>>
>> As you know the next WSF will happen in Tunis, and i really hope to see all of you coming back for the event so that we can all catch out.
>>
>> Making the WSF horizontal though is something that would be just amazing.
>> What fears me is that the last time we spent energy trying to make the local organisation more horizontal before the event, it was more or less a wasted energy that ended ups that we were being attacked as an organisation in Tunis by several people who saw their interest being menaced.
>>
>> By now, i'd support & participate as much i can on such actions & calls, and i'm available on 6 January.
>> It would be entirely possible to organize horizontal stuff here while the event indeed, but besides, i really have no clue about my participation inside the local organisation in Tunis because the bad experiences that came out the previous time (again, i don't speak about the event but about the efforts we made far before the WSF inside the local organisation).
>>
>> As a side note, the call as you writed it Orsan looks fine to me.
>>
>> Le 31/12/2013 14:00, Chapullers OrsanS a écrit :
>>> Dear Rami, Marita, Mikfus and all,
>>>
>>> There is still silence and no one is taking the initiative. We all are
>>> doing other things and may be waiting for something. Yet, I really
>>> think we have to move so wish to proceed and see what will happen with
>>> the below draft call.
>>>
>>> Of course anyone is more than welcome to contribute and participate,
>>> change, and modify the idea rewrite from the scretch. In case there
>>> comes no response or alternative initiative.
>>>
>>> I would like to launch the event on facebook at the end of this week
>>> at around 6 January. Looking forward to get any feedback and possible
>>> collaboration
>>>
>>> wishing all a rEvolutionary 2014!
>>> Orsan
>>>
>>>
>>> World rEvolution Forum - WrEF
>>>
>>> What?
>>> WrEF is a forum that is open to all individuals. It is an idea and
>>> invitation to all to get together and collaborate as individuals
>>> either as part of collectives, groups, unions, parties so on or not,
>>> by using any online and face-to face means and tools in order to link
>>> the plans, activities and actions and build a great waves of good,
>>> oppressed and struggling peoples. The overall aim is to stop and move
>>> beyond the disasterous and elitist political and economic system that
>>> has been destroying the planet and that is rapidly turning into a
>>> global tiranny! The concept is a rEvolutionary fork to World Social
>>> Forum (WSF). So it is about building a space much more social,
>>> inclusive and horizontal than the WSF had been; with open and free
>>> grassroots participation in every tasks at the individual level rather
>>> than having representational and organisational leadership and
>>> participation criteria. The idea is open to all individuals from any
>>> backgrounds, party, hackers, union.. so on also in terms of forming or
>>> linking nodes, thinking and doing organisational, visioning or other
>>> relevant tasks.
>>>
>>> This first mumble call is a kick off event that aims to launch an open
>>> eneded and totally distributed world rEvolution forum on the 19
>>> January while countering the the elitist World Economic Forum (WEF)
>>> which will meet in Davos on the 22 January 2014. The same kind of
>>> confrontation was appeared as a strong meme created originally by the
>>> WSF when it was launched first time more than a decade ago. The agenda
>>> of the call is open within this framework.
>>>
>>> When?
>>> Date:  19 January 2014
>>> Time: 14:00 PM (UK time)
>>>
>>> Where?
>>> Mumble Server: Occupy Talk
>>> Label : Occupii
>>> Server : occupytalk.org (has to be written exactly as it is)
>>> Port: 64738
>>> Channel: WrEF
>>> Nickname: Your name/nick
>>>
>>> How to join?
>>> http://www.global-square.net/how-to-join/
>>>
>>> What else I can do?
>>> If you can't or prefer not to use internet or Mumble software, then we
>>> encourage all inividuals and groups to either organise their own
>>> events, or send us link and information about the relevant events (of
>>> real democracy, equality, freedom, solidarity, global revolution,
>>> uprisings and or local/national/international mobilisations) which are
>>> already planned for 2014. We will try to create an collaboratory and
>>> open directory, maps and time tables that would include these
>>> information sent so all can use it and easily spread around the globe
>>> in all the languages.
>>> .
>>>
>>> On 18 December 2013 18:18, Rami Brahem <rami.brahem@...> wrote:
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks again Mikifus for the links they are very interesting to me !
>>>> Thanks aswell Orsan for being you.
>>>> & Thanks Sol & Piran for the interesting links.
>>>>
>>>> I think it would be nice to meet.
>>>> About the ideas presented on the n-1 page, i have some updates aswell from
>>>> projects being build in France. They are several groups working on the same
>>>> ideas, but the problem is that they have different visions: from a "virtual
>>>> assembly" to "decentralized com system", & from how to take decisions (vote,
>>>> consent, etc).
>>>>
>>>> I think the idea is the good one, meaning about doing a system instead the
>>>> system, but this is in my point of view not only about an internet tool, but
>>>> also about the mechanisms of such a system.
>>>> Besides, there is some work that was done, some of them from people that
>>>> participated to make n-1, like a study on the existent tools, and also
>>>> several softwares created or being prepared.
>>>>
>>>> In my opinion, the real problem is the lack of holoptism & the difficulties
>>>> to understand the parameters of collective decision, but it's a big subject
>>>> & i wouldn't enter there right now.
>>>> Anyway, there is lot of good stuff being done everywhere in the world right
>>>> now, & we're all going to the same topics.
>>>>
>>>> About GS, it would be nice to catch & meet. Even just having some
>>>> discussions. I know that we have all agendas that are already full though,
>>>> and as you said, all involved in local & international struggles that let us
>>>> with few time to manage other stuff.
>>>> This is also one of the problems that occurs previously.
>>>> Also, the international meetings like Agoras were meant for Europe i think,
>>>> anyway a bit closed from other countrys especially the ones in Africa cause
>>>> the methods they used to communicate (i couldn't participate as eg. with the
>>>> phone conferences from Tunisia).
>>>>
>>>> We return there to the meaning of globalsquare, what we want to do. I mean,
>>>> all the ideas converge to something, lot of projects are going on
>>>> everywhere, we're involved in so much so what would be the point ?
>>>> Personnaly, i'm pretty sure we can work out some things really good, but i'm
>>>> not sure that we will all be equally interested as we have different
>>>> priorities, and as some projects that are related may already be in the go.
>>>>
>>>> The re-evaluation of what we did is something that is in my opinion
>>>> important to do, but again, it depends on the investment of everyone. I
>>>> mean, if most of us have few time & few interest to GS compared to their
>>>> other activities, then it would be useless to spend too much time on this.
>>>> Anyway it looks like that we need to discuss.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway i'll be really glad to meet again or just speak again with all.
>>>> I wish you all great energy for all that you are doing.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Le 18/12/2013 09:53, Chapullers OrsanS a écrit :
>>>>> Ok Rami, I see your very good points and agree with most of them. Still I
>>>>> think starting from somewhere mid october or november last year, if i
>>>>> remember correctly we had series of long mumble meetings to prepare for
>>>>> tunis. Yet you are right about the hurry and little time we had we had to
>>>>> start before May be. The responsibility however had been on all of us and we
>>>>> could have work out more practical solutions. May be because of the time all
>>>>> had to spend on local level struggles and many other things it was difficult
>>>>> to make enough time to talk about all the important issues and deliver
>>>>> proper and well structured agendas and meetings. Yet I think that was part
>>>>> of an very important experiment and learning process and we may now have
>>>>> more experience and be able manage to make things better. I appoligize again
>>>>> of my reaction and misunderstanding, and appreciate too with the sincere
>>>>> communication! of course I also have huge respect to you your work and
>>>>> fight.
>>>>>
>>>>> In terms of giving more explanation of draft ideas I persented on the n-1
>>>>> page, in respons to anonymous call for worldwide wave of actions #www  (it
>>>>> is really an anonymous call I don't have any clue how made it, yet really
>>>>> liked it). So I just added some more thoughts for instance to initiate a
>>>>> preparatory form with longer and large spaces in it, similar to those of
>>>>> which take the square experimented on IRC chat in 2011. I thought of a name
>>>>> Worldwide rEvolutionary Forum, since it is needed to make clear that it is
>>>>> about revelution and evolution at the same time and it is about ' going
>>>>> beyond' the WSF., like instead of meeting in one place as WSF does, and
>>>>> invite all organisations, collecting and spending lots of money, for ony 4-5
>>>>> days of meetings, where most of the time same group of people meets again
>>>>> and deiver closed meetings of which agenda and outcome is already prepared,
>>>>> I tried to collect the ideas I heard from Carminsa, Jasper, Vica, Shawn and
>>>>> many others during our discussion and so on. I believe we need to try to
>>>>> think of something totally decentralised, make everything open and
>>>>> connected. So a preparatory and very experimental forum that might last
>>>>> between 2-3 months and during the these times information and networks would
>>>>> have more time to get connected each other, share preperations and results,
>>>>> with deeper conversations. These are not at all about calling all to to some
>>>>> thing new, different than what they already do, or decided somewhere else,
>>>>> but call for bringing things in one window to out open to world to seem so
>>>>> to give visibility and feeleing of connectedness. These ideas I think
>>>>> corrsponds with many points you have rised. and it is not a finished and
>>>>> serious call at all. Just tring to communicate and concretise ideas like,
>>>>> hacking WSF, visioning a Global Square in another form, so on I have tried
>>>>> to put them to gether and before doing so I did email it to the tts list
>>>>> begin November.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you and any other would have an interest to discuss these I propose to
>>>>> make finally the mumble call proposed by Marita, and prepare together an
>>>>> agenda and start a new round of open spaces which we would form and improve
>>>>> from the scratch.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's use this pad to start preparing a first call to start moving:
>>>>> http://titanpad.com/mumblemeetingpreparation
>>>>>
>>>>> we already have some updates to make, from Rome Agora99, and may be from
>>>>> Bockupy conf. as well as, from countries. so on. Yet it can also be a just
>>>>> couple of our as you suggest, with groups, for example  to reevaluate 2011
>>>>> till today.
>>>>>
>>>>> In any case I Hope all would like to meet up again soon
>>>>> Solidarity, orsan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 16 December 2013 23:33, Rami Brahem <rami.brahem@...> wrote:
>>>>>> Hello Orsan,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As you're not precize at all about what bothered you in the skype
>>>>>> message, i
>>>>>> still don't get what was my exact mystake... I didn't felt agressive, i
>>>>>> may
>>>>>> be wrong but we would be nice to hear was the exact problem to learn from
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>> Also, i'm sorry if it did disturbed you. you should know i appreciate you
>>>>>> very much Orsan & i have an huge respect for you. I didn't meant to hurt
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> in anyway, but just to share what i was thinking.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, i'd like to point out another thing: making mystakes should be
>>>>>> celebrate !
>>>>>> Making mystakes & recognizing them is the way we evolve, and it is the
>>>>>> conditionning from a system based on competition that makes us hate &
>>>>>> comdamn the mystakes in my opinion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd like to share that what you pointed was a part of my frustration in
>>>>>> GS
>>>>>> that we didn't spoke on all of this !  "too little time", "too little
>>>>>> speaks", etc... I asked several times to share about our experiences, to
>>>>>> learn from them, to share all our methods & learn from all of us.
>>>>>> It just never happened enough. I even tryed to gather few of us to speaks
>>>>>> about this specifically, just because we couldn't do it during the
>>>>>> assemblies enough... Is it really bad ? I don't see how.. oO
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't understand why the ego push one to make a competition between
>>>>>> these
>>>>>> stuff. Personnaly, i see what i've learned, and i'm opened to admit
>>>>>> anything
>>>>>> wrong why learning more from the others.
>>>>>> I could feel frustrated though, when i don't find the space to actually
>>>>>> share enough and i guess this is the whole point...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Honestly, i feel a judgement in your words that is quite disturbing.
>>>>>> There
>>>>>> is no need to apply any judgement on the others. Each one have
>>>>>> experiences &
>>>>>> it's all about understanding each others. I was never close to understand
>>>>>> the others personnaly, and i just feel it's unfair when not being
>>>>>> listened
>>>>>> or when i don't feel i got any reply to my questions, which i guess it's
>>>>>> normal as i listen carefully to the others.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think these discussions here are interesting though, and i'd like to
>>>>>> reply
>>>>>> more precisely to one of your sentence, hoping it won't stop marita to
>>>>>> reply
>>>>>> to my previous questions aswell.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> " If you wan't to see 'us'  forming one group to build and concretise
>>>>>> plans
>>>>>> and then we identify with that group, I wouldnt be there my self, and if
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> think I proose that, please don't join in. I think, doesn't matter how
>>>>>> horizontal that groups works, which best method of horizontality that
>>>>>> groups
>>>>>> uses, it would make no sens in terms of collective intelligence and open
>>>>>> horizontality. "
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I disagree here with you in a part, and you are missunderstading me in an
>>>>>> other part.
>>>>>> First of all, i never meant anyone to identify with a group that is owned
>>>>>> by
>>>>>> previous people. And further, any group open or not begin with less
>>>>>> people &
>>>>>> then grows up. I think the main point is about not having anyone having
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> power than the others, being old or new, & to accept to evolve.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then, you speak about collective intelligence again. Collective
>>>>>> intelligence
>>>>>> is a discipline that is about the parameters of synergy & the forms of
>>>>>> organisations. There is collective intelligence even in the pyramidal
>>>>>> forms.
>>>>>> So it makes no sense to me to say "it makes no sens in terms for
>>>>>> collective
>>>>>> intelligence".
>>>>>> If you're asking about having the "best" collective intelligence, then
>>>>>> quantity or the fact to be open isn't everything there, and more, the
>>>>>> spirit
>>>>>> of the group or the harmony is an important point there...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then you speak about "open horizontality". Again, this is undefined. 5
>>>>>> people can be horizontal and what does it means to be "open"?
>>>>>> Please, dont get me AGAIN the wrong way. My point is more about: "what we
>>>>>> are doing right now ? Does that concern everyone ?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As an exemple, should i have a consensus with my neighbour on how i
>>>>>> should
>>>>>> arrange my living room? Should a people in Tunis should decide for a
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> of sidi bou zid how they should manage their city ?
>>>>>> That's just about decentralisation: decisions that concern us is taken by
>>>>>> us, decisions that concern you is decided by you.
>>>>>> Another point is: Are we always taking a decision ?
>>>>>> If we work to prepare proposals, they are not decisions yet.
>>>>>> Again, another point is: If i work & then gives my work as open source
>>>>>> work
>>>>>> for everyone, am i wrong to begin to work before calling everyone to
>>>>>> participate ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As an exemple, if i want to make a great open source software that would
>>>>>> allow to switch on all streaming TVs & channels easyly so that i don't
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> to follow X different links, someone gather for me all the streaming
>>>>>> assemblies links & i have all of it on one TV link, & then i just give it
>>>>>> for free without owning anything is bad ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I personnaly think that there is spaces that have a reason to be. A call
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> about saying: "ok we are motivated to makes X that concern all of us, so
>>>>>> everyone is welcome & we are all equal".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In that sentence, there is several stuff: "Who are this "we"? " Are you
>>>>>> everyone ?! Being honest is in my point of view the best :"We are X
>>>>>> number
>>>>>> of people from there & there, we gathered because of this, & we'd like to
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> that because tatata".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, this X number of people didn't had the right to meet & share ?! They
>>>>>> necessarly meet before at some point & the moment they make a call is
>>>>>> just
>>>>>> about them, like it or not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my point of view, as soon these people didn't decide anything that
>>>>>> concerned the ohers, they didn't spoke in the others name or used them
>>>>>> without concent, they're free to do whatever they want.
>>>>>> When i comes in, if i find that they work with consensus & non
>>>>>> hierachical,
>>>>>> they accept to make the rules evolve, and they are transparent, it's fine
>>>>>> for me.
>>>>>> More, if they already offers lot of work as tools, networks, ressources,
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> whatever, i'll say "oh Great ! Huge ! you're awesome !".
>>>>>> I'll certainly not say to them :"Pff you did this all alone without
>>>>>> calling
>>>>>> the entire world you're bad & not open".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Besides, there is stuff that MUST be ENTIRELY OPEN (still my point of
>>>>>> view...)
>>>>>> As an exemple, no one can decide for the others what they will do for
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> city. So they must call an open assembly & say: "We're making an open
>>>>>> assembly for the citizens to get the direct control over our cities".
>>>>>> Then, it would be totaly wrong indeed to get things another way.
>>>>>> So, again, all of this is about WHY we're calling people.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Still, that WHY needs to be clear in my opinion...
>>>>>> As i pointed out, this precise question was not clear in GS. It was
>>>>>> totally
>>>>>> improvised by people in the same spirit who wanted to do things togethers
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the WSF, it could have just stopped there after the WSF. When we decided
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> meet again, we never decided all togethers exactly why, neither how.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, you're speaking like all humans were perfect and time don't exists.
>>>>>> Unfortunatly, there is actually a problem of time, and lot of conformism
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> this earth, even in the "horizontal" people.
>>>>>> When you begins with a process, lot of people tends to not change it
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> they fear anything new.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So actually defining clearly a way to makes the rules & strategy evolve,
>>>>>> &
>>>>>> how, looks to me far more open & fair, than saying that you need
>>>>>> consensus &
>>>>>> letting no clear spaces, process, or time, to makes the rules or the
>>>>>> strategy evolve.
>>>>>> It allows only tiniest changes, or no change, the things that will always
>>>>>> go
>>>>>> on are the most obvious things like :"everyone is great, we must link
>>>>>> togethers, austerity is bad, power to the people, let's struggle".
>>>>>> But if anyones comes with anything that would need deep discussions, he
>>>>>> won't find the space, the time, any process, to have a real chance to do
>>>>>> so.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As i see it right now, if he works on his part all alone it will be: "NO,
>>>>>> you can't work on your way & then comes with such a proposal". If he
>>>>>> comes
>>>>>> to the others to say: "I would be cool to do this", it will be always an
>>>>>> objection like: "I think that it is too away are we're doing now & we
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>> have time for this, or whatever."
>>>>>> If he decide to do a project he have in his heart on his side because he
>>>>>> want it anyway & find it useful, then he gathers a group horizontaly that
>>>>>> wants to work in the same project, then they succeed & comes back to the
>>>>>> precious people it will be: "Oh great ! what you did was amazing thanks
>>>>>> you,
>>>>>> it is actually useful."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At a point, this make no sense to block people without a clear, exact
>>>>>> reason
>>>>>> of why you block them. Did they decide something at your place ?! or not
>>>>>> ?!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> More, any problem have a solution using collective intelligence & having
>>>>>> time to solve it.
>>>>>> As ethnologists pointed out, in the art of palabra "consensus ancestral
>>>>>> african assemblies" there is a philosophy:  "To any problem correspond
>>>>>> one
>>>>>> just solution and only one , the entire object of the discussion is to
>>>>>> find
>>>>>> it: not to invent it but to discover it.
>>>>>> The individuals have, on reality, a partial point of view, ..., at the
>>>>>> moment where it pops up, the debate stops; all further discussion would
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> useless.
>>>>>> The just solution, is the one that is the most favorable to the happyness
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> all the community, .., as soon it raise, the one who would continue to
>>>>>> oppose would reveal that he prefers his individual interest among the
>>>>>> general interest".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Our problem, imo, is that we lives in a world of stress & lack of time.
>>>>>> We
>>>>>> lives always with "deadlines" & "timelimits". Sometimes, we speak a lot,
>>>>>> about things that are less important for most people while ignoring
>>>>>> things
>>>>>> that are really important for another one. We can speaks a lot & then, we
>>>>>> must take a decision in a hurry, ignoring most people, getting only the
>>>>>> last
>>>>>> stuff.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> People that are actually the less fearless & opened let goes things more
>>>>>> than conformist people who have fears. These ones are the ones who decide
>>>>>> when we don't have the time to discuss enough to let no one frustrated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I personnaly never blame anyone, i just say that the time is a very
>>>>>> important parameter, and that having a space when you can more discuss is
>>>>>> quite a good thing. I don't think this is in any way opposed to the idea
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> being opened. I think it is all about clear transparent spaces, time, &
>>>>>> never decide for the others.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Le 16/12/2013 21:15, Chapullers OrsanS a écrit :
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Rami, I don't want to bother others on the list more with this topic,
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> at least personal misunderstanding or miscommunication, yet I think there
>>>>>> are some useful points coming out of the emails sent to point out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First shortly responding to your point: Basically I do agree that the
>>>>>> kind
>>>>>> of expression, like in your last email, is much better than first sending
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> aggressive reaction through skype and then send a calmer but sharp email
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> the list to make a very short statement. I think that was as wrong as my
>>>>>> agressive return. My english is not very good as well, and I think it is
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> only about English or cultural difference.
>>>>>> Disagreement I have with your approach or your core understanding/critic
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the way 'calls' made or 'initiatives' are taken, and how do they get
>>>>>> resenance, evolve, echo, or get no reaction at all... might be
>>>>>> fundamental
>>>>>> in the collective intelligence or new reality.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think value of local and hoizontal work on specific or general issues
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> struggles are very important and you claim that that is forgotten or
>>>>>> found
>>>>>> unimportant, or at least seems like you think it is the highest time to
>>>>>> remind it when to talk about horizontality. I think like Occupy camps,
>>>>>> 15M
>>>>>> neigbourhood assemblies all vwere signifying the importance given by
>>>>>> masses
>>>>>> of people, who joined in the uprisings and assemblies or networks
>>>>>> afterwards
>>>>>> to the local and more concnetrated work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is nice to see you after some time found time to ask these obvious
>>>>>> questions to people who you know more than a year, met in Tunisia, did
>>>>>> assembly... who were at Sol and knew all story from the beginning.
>>>>>> Doesn't
>>>>>> matter how late I appreciate that you have asked these questions, and
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> would also be very good to hear from you how did it start and evolved in
>>>>>> Tunisia as well. I realise that, and remember every time when we gather
>>>>>> either in Tunis, or online, to exchange on these core information in
>>>>>> countries adn uprisings, you were the one getting frustrated and asked
>>>>>> 'if
>>>>>> are we only going to meet and exhange and made dlear that it is not
>>>>>> useful
>>>>>> at all!! So didn't make or find time to ask you and others in Tunis,
>>>>>> these
>>>>>> obvious questions. Don't know may be others did. So this is kind of an
>>>>>> exchange we needed at first and as you see, at least this came up as a
>>>>>> result of lots of people who doenst know each other and they are not at
>>>>>> all
>>>>>> 'us'  it can be very usefull, might not be an empty or undepth talk. Do
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> see my point?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What I think was lying under my harsh, and out of control reply to your
>>>>>> actually skype message. was firstly about this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But also another fundamental issue we see different. We had, and have
>>>>>> been
>>>>>> confronting this issue, in general during and after the mass uiprisings,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> then following assemblies, as well as networking at national and
>>>>>> international levels, with or without online tools. It is related to what
>>>>>> you have been calling 'mistake', 'same mistakes all the time', 'amateur',
>>>>>> 'you woulnd't do that',... so on is an interesting point that I find
>>>>>> wrong
>>>>>> basically.
>>>>>> If you meant the mistake made in the history, by the calls launched by
>>>>>> sole
>>>>>> left group, click, sect, or fraction, so aclosed groups of anarchist,
>>>>>> communist, revolutionary, socialist, what ever then I would agree
>>>>>> totally.
>>>>>> But I don't see anything related to this when you address me. I am not a
>>>>>> part of any one single group, or organisation at all. I think we may and
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> all join many networks, yet we do refuse identifying with singe one of
>>>>>> them,
>>>>>> we collaborate and work with all networks we have ties, and by relying
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> staying honest only our own principles and believes. So can stay and
>>>>>> participate as individual and collaborate intensly and act in
>>>>>> collectives.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The calls, or blogs, or n-1 pages you see are expressions, linked tomany
>>>>>> other ones, can be thought of as political art. Most of the time they are
>>>>>> amateur, enthesuiast and crap may be, but they are shared, open, meshed
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> open ended. Non of them are original or with patent. If you wan't to see
>>>>>> 'us'  forming one group to build and concretise plans and then we
>>>>>> identify
>>>>>> with that group, I wouldnt be there my self, and if you think I proose
>>>>>> that,
>>>>>> please don't join in. I think, doesn't matter how horizontal that groups
>>>>>> works, which best method of horizontality that groups uses, it would make
>>>>>> no
>>>>>> sens in terms of collective intelligence and open horizontality. I think
>>>>>> DRY
>>>>>> is a perfect good example, or Adbusters, you should read with focus and
>>>>>> study how ithey were born and coused big events, and what happened to
>>>>>> them
>>>>>> after and the evnts they triggered afterwards.. there are lots of lessons
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> learn in these examples, and of course for all of us, very much including
>>>>>> myself .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are some recent discoveries for me, in this sense, to study. I hope
>>>>>> might be helpful to others as well:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First one is another book, from a friend you might know her. She involved
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> first the Global Square project, she is Heather Marsh (am not sure she
>>>>>> might
>>>>>> be on this list as well), it is a free book in english:
>>>>>> Binding Chaos: http://georgiebc.wordpress.com/category/binding-chaos/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> a this interesting project aclled P2PValue, a software similar to Global
>>>>>> Square but more about a platform to build things collaboratively, so goes
>>>>>> beyond p2p network between assemblies and activists.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and Rami, good luck with your struggles as well.. May be we are not there
>>>>>> but they are also our struggles!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 14 December 2013 18:45, Rami Brahem <rami.brahem@...> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think you missunderstood me but whatever. I may have been not with the
>>>>>>> good way to express my view but please remember english is not as easy
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> me than for you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What i wanted to express is that, for me, doing a bilan will re-do imo
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> same mystakes. Sounds like a basic to me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> About large groups or little groups, this is not what i meant aswell. It
>>>>>>> was anyway a little group that begun an assembly with 15M movement with
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> great patern of action that was clear & easy to reproduce. It was also
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> same patern for Occupy, Tunisia, etc.
>>>>>>> These groups did prepared themselves & then they explained to everyone
>>>>>>> their methods to allow everyone to be inspired to redo the same thing or
>>>>>>> improve it  & link with the others.
>>>>>>> About my article, it's about a certain public that have no clue about
>>>>>>> horizontality or auto-gestion, meant to let them get their own
>>>>>>> experiences
>>>>>>> instead of saying to them :"come here! we have the solution !"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not saying we have to stay as a little group, i just say that in my
>>>>>>> opinion, it's better to be prepared togethers to be more efficient.
>>>>>>> Creating
>>>>>>> harmony is just for me a way to better welcome any newcomer & to let him
>>>>>>> feel good qith the less frustrations & aware of everything easier.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's not imo deciding for the others, as our movements as i see them
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>> always accept to be evolutive & never force anyone to anything, as they
>>>>>>> always should allow anyone to do proposals, even to change the process
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> everything.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Collective intelligence is several forms aswell, & i think that the best
>>>>>>> synergy comes with harmony. When we make a big assembly, no one can
>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>> express himself deeply.
>>>>>>> That's why i find it nice to do sub-groups creating more deeper
>>>>>>> discussions, & then, in another moment, regroup all of us in an assembly
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> decide togethers.
>>>>>>> This way helps to get everyone expressing himself entirely in my point
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> view.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't understand why you felt offended, i didn't judge you, i'm just
>>>>>>> saying how i see the things should go. I may indeed be wrong, & i thank
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> to be sincere but please let me also express myself as i think.
>>>>>>> And please,  just as you have the entire right to disagree, i do have it
>>>>>>> aswell.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Besides, apparently, you have the feeling that i'm closed minded or
>>>>>>> whatever. Personnaly, i never forced anyone to anything. I never slowed
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> others & accepted to be ignored when it was the case understanding that
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> others have the right to have other priorities or understandings.
>>>>>>> I also never insisted in any way in any meeting or here by repeating
>>>>>>> myself & did let thinks go on even i did disagree to not create long
>>>>>>> discussions that could have disturbed the others.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So when you finally express something & get a :" you're just critize
>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>> you came & never did anything else saying your view is the best". It is
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> judgement on a specific person, based on nothing, & really with a LOT of
>>>>>>> INJUSTICE.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When a person actually want to express his view on how he thinks the
>>>>>>> organisation could be more efficient, you do have the right to disagree,
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> i don't see your point on such a reaction, and honestly, it don't gives
>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>> motivation to participate or express a view.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think that if you have a problem, you can express simply: "I feel
>>>>>>> offended by this because X & i think Y". I would say: "Oh ok sorry i
>>>>>>> meant
>>>>>>> Z, it was not about you, etc, I agree that this could have not be
>>>>>>> precize or
>>>>>>> whatever."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyway, i still thanks everyone for their work that is still precious, i
>>>>>>> hope the best for Globalsquare, & good luck with your stuggles Orsan.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Le 14/12/2013 13:41, Orsan a écrit :
>>>>>>>> Apologies I first read the Skype messages you sent and that sounded to
>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>> aggressive as well, then read your email there I also felt offended.
>>>>>>>> I think you make good points on which I may agree but also there are
>>>>>>>> things in your article you circulated before and analysis of which I
>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>> agree with you in main lines, like doing revolution, forming a small
>>>>>>>> group
>>>>>>>> and expand to the world. About the call like #www for 2014, it is not
>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>> call, it is an anonymous call I read and liked so reproduced, that is
>>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>>> stated on the call text. Gnunion idea is another thing I was working on
>>>>>>>> intensively since 2010 and it is an evolving experiment, it is also not
>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>> idea in essence, result of many exchanges, networking! historical
>>>>>>>> experiences and collective thinking. May be not coming from a small
>>>>>>>> group
>>>>>>>> tightly connected and try to expand and welcome outsiders. This sound
>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>> close to the older way of working to me. The collective intelligence
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> refer doesn't require affinity groups and every individual can take
>>>>>>>> initiative to my understanding of new paradigm.  Would be good to talk
>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>> this all together anyway everybody has own opinions.
>>>>>>>> Hope to talk soon, Orsan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 13 dec. 2013, at 18:44, Rami Brahem <rami.brahem@...> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "especially thanks to Marita was suggesting and since the beginning
>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>> thing you do is critzying all the other ways of houzontality than your
>>>>>>>>> wat
>>>>>>>>> and claiming that you know about the best one.. Join in maritas call
>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>> and share with others what you had prepared with collective
>>>>>>>>> intelligente"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You're becoming really agressive.
>>>>>>>>> I think everyones is doing a great job..
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I didn't say i had "the best one", i just made a bilan & i think we
>>>>>>>>> would gain to see what went good or not, while giving my point of
>>>>>>>>> view, so
>>>>>>>>> please don't deform my words.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I made concrete proposals, & first of all, a bilan to see the positive
>>>>>>>>> &
>>>>>>>>> the negative. I think i tryed to give both on my mails.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Besides, you created a n-1 group, so i don't think this is just about
>>>>>>>>> giving ideas but also to launch a group ?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm sorry you take this the bad way Orsan, maybe it's due to cultural
>>>>>>>>> differencies & the difficulty of express myself in english but
>>>>>>>>> whatever, i
>>>>>>>>> still thx everyone for their efforts & i'll just not react anymore or
>>>>>>>>> express my views.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bye.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Le 13/12/2013 18:38, Orsan Senalp a écrit :
>>>>>>>>>> especially thanks to Marita was suggesting and since the beginning
>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>> thing you do is critzying all the other ways of houzontality than
>>>>>>>>>> your wat
>>>>>>>>>> and claiming that you know about the best one.. Join in maritas call
>>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>>> and share with others what you had prepared with collective
>>>>>>>>>> intelligente!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Archive:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://openfsm.net/projects/2011movements-fsm-wsf/lists/2011movements-fsm-wsf-discussion/archive/2013/12/1386956873140
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email with subject "unsubscribe" to
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>>>>>>>>> questions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Archive:
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Archive:
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>> Archive: http://openfsm.net/[…]/1387225096382
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>>>>> Archive:
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