Dear Mikael,
We share the understanding that the WSF is - about "the world" :-)
Glad to know that you are not fixated on Israel and/or the war in Gaza, as
plenty of "our people" are.
No! I don't know Emma. But maybe she reads about our comments concerning
her views on Paul Craig Roberts, of whom I must humbly admit had no
previous awareness of his existence. Maybe my comments to you - about
extending the list of criminal national-states to the Hague International
Court of Justice might also be pertinent to his proposal fixed on we know
whom, right?
I agree with you about it might being unwise to bring the example of the
so-called "grand alliance" during WW II.

One challenge at WSF might rather be:
What on Earth might we envisage and do something about - in the short,
middle and long shot
- to give Peace on Earth "a chance" - before it is too late - or?
Abrazo
Azril
_______________

On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 10:55 AM, Mikael Book <book@...> wrote:

>
> True, Azril, I cannot name anybody who has the precise answers to these
> questions about alliances. Perhaps it was unwise from my side to bring up
> the example of the so called grand alliance during WWII and those
> well-known names? On the other hand, in a WSF-discussion we cannot avoid
> speaking about "the world", can we?
> But Azril, I am not fixated on Israel and/or the war in Gaza. Maybe Emma
> Rosenthal is, which might explain why she writes about Paul Craig Roberts
> the way she does. I maintain that her article (the one that triggered this
> discussion thread) is slanderous and of poor quality. If you happen to know
> her, pls tell her to do better! Kind regards,
>
> Mikael
>
>
> Mikael Böök * book@... * gsm +358(0)-44 5511 324 *
> http://www.kaapeli.fi/book/  * http://blogi.kaapeli.fi/book/ *
> http://blog.spinellisfootsteps.info/
>
>
> On Mon, 25 Aug 2014, Azril Bacal wrote:
>
>  Dear Mikael,
>>
>> It appears to be a humble statement from your part, that you are "afraid
>> not to know the precise answer(s)..."
>>
>> Name one name of someone on Earth and Heavens - who has the precise
>> answer(s)?
>>
>> At any rate, you feel you had "enough" to not hesitate in your answer - to
>> Sukla's message in our list, when writing that: Emma Rosenthal's attack on
>> Craig Roberts ...is "a piece of slander and not worth much consideration."
>>
>> You know for a fact, that I always commended your wisdom in the past.
>>
>> Now it is my time to question it, as follows:
>>
>> So, yes! Roosevelt and Churchill tactically made a deal with Stalin.
>>
>> But weren't we at the WSF trying to build together "Another Possible
>> World"
>> - which required from us to avoid the pitfalls from the past? To avoid the
>> old ways of "using all means premised on our lofty aims"? To avoid the old
>> ways of regarding our enemy's eneases. my as our allies? Are we still
>> trapped by old ways?
>>
>> Reading you now, Mikael, makes me sad and keenly aware that we are still
>> overshadowed by our past conditioning and reductionism.
>>
>> My list of those condemned for "Crimes against Humanity" is much larger
>> than yours - and not "fixed" exclusively on Israel, as you seem to be
>> doing
>> right now...I would include ISIS, the members of the "Insecurity Council"
>> and the countries producing and selling weapons, the countries financing
>> the rockets launched by Hamas/Jihad - instead of these funds being used
>> for
>> the sustainable development of the people in Gaza, Saudi Arabia, Ir¡an -
>> and even Sweden and Brazil for producing/selling weapons. In facts, I
>> would
>> include most if not all contemporary national-states should be send to the
>> Hague Tribunal for being class-ethnocratic and ethnicidal societies, that
>> factually kill people through their policies of privatization and
>> increasing socio-economic inequality.
>> But that would make it difficult for the Hague Tribunal to handle this
>> overwhelming number of c
>>
>> Even though I share the same horror againts this viscious and senless
>> waste
>> of human lifes due to the interlocked violent politics of Netanhayu's
>> Israel and Hammas/Jihad's Gaza.
>>
>> On the grounds of the values I thought I was endorsing at the WSF and NIGD
>> (or was I perhaps deluded from the beginning?) - I have endorsed Desmond
>> Tutu's appeal to the israeli people - but have simultaneously kept
>> distnace
>> from that unilateral reductionism of the position that now leads you to
>> join hands with Craig Roberts - like some "leftists" do with neo-Nazis do
>> today in their shared antisemitism.
>>
>> So what about checking one's eye - and not just focusing exclusively on
>> the
>> one and only only cause of all evil on Earth?
>>
>> Your "humblest" friend :-)
>> Azril
>>
>> We have a long ways to go if the wisest of us, like yourself, walk on such
>> muddy roads.
>>
>> Like your humble state at the end, I am afraid I do no know the precise
>> answer(s)...
>> Abrazo
>> Azril
>> ______
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 9:21 AM, Mikael Book <book@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Emma Rosenthal's attack on Paul Craig Roberts (the one that Sukla Sen
>>> forwarded to our list) is a piece of slander and not worth much
>>> consideration.
>>>
>>> I read the articles of Paul Craig Roberts every now and then at
>>> Counterpunch and PCR:s own website, and will continue to do so, because
>>> of
>>> their qualities, and despite the somewhat choleric tone of this writer.
>>>
>>> Does this imply an alliance?  No.
>>>
>>> Would I be prepared to sign a statement that was also signed by PCR? Yes
>>> I
>>> would, depending of course on the content and the situation.
>>>
>>> Would it be possible that some day I would find myself fighting an enemy
>>> side by side with Paul Craig Roberts? Yes, I believe that could happen.
>>>
>>> Churchill and Roosevelt made an alliance with Stalin -- and viceversa. To
>>> what extent does an alliance depend on principles, how much is it
>>> determined by necessity (a question of life and death), how much due to
>>> personal sympathies and antipathies?
>>>
>>> I am afraid I do no know the precise answer(s).
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Mikael
>>>
>>>
>>> Mikael Böök * book@... * gsm +358(0)-44 5511 324 *
>>> http://www.kaapeli.fi/book/  * http://blogi.kaapeli.fi/book/ *
>>> http://blog.spinellisfootsteps.info/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 24 Aug 2014, peter waterman wrote:
>>>
>>>  Well, let's see, Jan,
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I just reposted an item about a network of lawyers' organisations that
>>>> proposed bringing Israel to the International Criminal Court on the
>>>> basis
>>>> of multiple charges concerning its war in Gaza.
>>>>
>>>> One of the signators of this appeal was the International Association of
>>>> Democratic Lawyers, which I remembered as a Soviet front organisation
>>>> (along with two I worked for in the 1950s-60s). Checking this up
>>>> online, I
>>>> discovered that one of its affiliates is a lawyer's organisation in
>>>> North
>>>> Korea. Meanwhile it has no affiliate in South Korea.
>>>>
>>>> I posted the declaration because I agreed with it. But I also did a
>>>> little
>>>> introductory note pointing out this...*anomaly*? So, I think it is not
>>>> so
>>>>
>>>> much a matter of being open to all possible allies but of precisely
>>>> being
>>>> selective and being open with them and about them.
>>>>
>>>> Actually, it seems to me that the signature of the IADL does the appeal
>>>> damage. I would be surprised if it were not picked up by Zionists to
>>>> discredit the appeal.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> PeterW
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 6:22 PM, Jan Wiklund <jawi@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  It is obviously so that a lot of conservative or libertarian Americans
>>>>
>>>>> oppose war, for different reasons - one of which probably is that war
>>>>> is
>>>>> expensive. Roberts is not the only one.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is not only valuable to know in itself, but it is also valuable
>>>>> since
>>>>> it gives one a hunch about that one sometimes may agree with peolpe
>>>>> about
>>>>> some issues but not about others. Which is good to know since it gives
>>>>> one
>>>>> a hunch about the essentials in alliance building.
>>>>>
>>>>> If our alliances was only built with pople we always agreed with, they
>>>>> would be small indeed, and would never ever win a victory. Which is
>>>>> what
>>>>> we
>>>>> aim at - or am i wrong?
>>>>>
>>>>> J
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 24 aug 2014 kl. 09.31 skrev Sukla Sen:
>>>>>
>>>>> [This is obviously a somewhat old article, but nevertheless relevant.]
>>>>>
>>>>> http://cafeintifada.wordpress.com/2010/03/09/867/
>>>>>  Paul Craig Roberts and his White Supremacist Appeal
>>>>> <http://cafeintifada.wordpress.com/2010/03/09/867/> *By Emma
>>>>> Rosenthal*
>>>>>
>>>>> March 9, 2010 by emmarosenthal
>>>>> <http://cafeintifada.wordpress.com/author/emmarosenthal/>*ARENÿÿT
>>>>> THERE
>>>>>
>>>>> BETTER, MORE DESERVING, MORE QUALIFIED WRITERS, WE CAN PROMOTE, TO
>>>>> DECONSTRUCT THE ASSUMPTIONS, ARROGANCE AND HUBRIS OF AMERICAN EMPIRE,
>>>>> ISRAELI SETTLER COLONIALISM AND GENOCIDE?*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Roberts is a right wing white supremacist who has written repeatedly
>>>>> anti-disability, anti-jewish, anti-gay, anti-immigrant anti- people of
>>>>> color, rants for years. (and while attempting to be ÿÿpro-Islam,
>>>>> pro-Arabÿÿ,
>>>>>
>>>>> his assertions are rife with orientalist assumptions of
>>>>> Amerikan/western
>>>>> superiority.) His critique of U.S./Israeli policy is not part of a
>>>>> human
>>>>> rights, social justice, anti-imperialist movement for
>>>>> self-determination
>>>>> or
>>>>> liberation, but rather is simply an extension of his white supremacist
>>>>> fear
>>>>> that white people and Amerika are losing ground.
>>>>>
>>>>> Roberts has written for years for VDARE (a racist publication, named
>>>>> for
>>>>> Virginia Dare, the first ÿÿwhiteÿÿ baby to be born in the ÿÿNew
>>>>> Worldÿÿ), but
>>>>>
>>>>> recently he has been published, without criticism or reference to his
>>>>> racist, ableist, sexist anti-gay, anti-immigrant, anti-Jewish,
>>>>> anti-Arab
>>>>> trajectory by Counterpunch, ifamericansknew, antiwar.com, Democracy
>>>>> Now,
>>>>> Information Clearing House, Alternet and other ÿÿprogressiveÿÿ media.
>>>>>
>>>>> In his article *ÿÿWhy Does Israel Want to Initiate War Between theU.S.
>>>>>  and Iran?ÿÿ* (1) Roberts repeats what weÿÿve been hearing for years:
>>>>> that
>>>>>
>>>>> the U.S. government is a puppet regime of Israel. immediately
>>>>> contradicting
>>>>> himself with the refrain weÿÿve heard for 10 years, that Israel is
>>>>> trying
>>>>>
>>>>>  to drag the U.S. into war with IRan, or that Israel will bomb Iran on
>>>>> its
>>>>> own. Weÿÿve heard this from the left, the right, and from two U.S. Vice
>>>>> Presidents. (Cheney and Biden) and yetÿÿ no war. (Sanctions,
>>>>> defamations,
>>>>> pressure, but no war!) Does this mean that the tail doesnÿÿt wag the
>>>>> dog, as
>>>>>
>>>>> has been suggested? After all, if Israel has really wanted the U.S. to
>>>>> go
>>>>> to war, or if Israel really wants to bomb Iran, if Israel really did
>>>>> run
>>>>> the show, wouldnÿÿt this have happened years ago?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On the other hand, is it possible that Israel is less influential than
>>>>> weÿÿve been led to believe and that the threat of an Israeli caused
>>>>> war,
>>>>> is
>>>>>
>>>>> part of the illusion the U.S.  and Israel have been manufacturing for
>>>>> some
>>>>> timeÿÿ the idea that Israel is responsible for U.S. foreign policyÿÿ
>>>>> taking
>>>>>
>>>>> the focus off of the U.S. and its global empire, while simultaneously
>>>>> making Israel seem much more powerful than it really is. ÿÿ a mutually
>>>>> beneficial illusion.
>>>>>
>>>>> In his article *ÿÿThe End of Free Speech? Criminalizing Criticism of
>>>>> Israelÿÿ*, (2) Roberts attacks a hate crimes bill that extends violent
>>>>>
>>>>> hate crimes protection to LGBT people and people with dis-abilities. He
>>>>> asserts that this new bill would make any criticism of Israel and the
>>>>> Holocaust, illegal, contrary to ANY reading of the bill, which says
>>>>> absolutely nothing about Israel and has no impact at all on speech.
>>>>>
>>>>> In his article *ÿÿ Muslims Are Their Own Worst Enemyÿÿ* (3) he repeats
>>>>>
>>>>> tired orientalist stereotypes, blames the victims of U.S. (and British
>>>>> and
>>>>> Russian Imperialism) for their own condition ÿÿM*uslim disunity has
>>>>> made
>>>>>
>>>>> it possible for Israel to dispossess the Palestinians, for the U.S. to
>>>>> invade Iraq, and for the U.S. to rule much of the regionÿÿÿÿ*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In his memoriam to Milton Friedman, (4) the architect of some of the
>>>>> most
>>>>> deadly economic policies of the Twentieth Century, he calls Friedman
>>>>> the
>>>>> *ÿÿgreat
>>>>> economist of our times.ÿÿ*
>>>>>
>>>>> In his article *ÿÿThat Buchanan Bookÿÿ *(5) he repeats and embellishes
>>>>> Buchanonÿÿs attacks on immigrants, multiculturalism, people of color
>>>>> people
>>>>>
>>>>> with dis-abilities and the left.
>>>>>
>>>>> *ÿÿBuchanan has strong opinions, but his opinions are based in facts,
>>>>>
>>>>> unlike his equally opinionated opponents, who have bought into the
>>>>> multiculturalist dogma of the evils of western civilization or taken
>>>>> refuge
>>>>> in neoconservative wishful thinking.ÿÿ*
>>>>>
>>>>> He states,* ÿÿWhites are shrinking into a minority even within their
>>>>> own
>>>>>
>>>>> countries. massive uncontrolled legal and illegal immigration, together
>>>>> with collapsing fertility rates of whites everywhere, foretell a
>>>>> vanishing
>>>>> race.ÿÿ* as if itÿÿs a bad thing.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> (Seriously though,  the disappearance of any culture or group is
>>>>> NEVER  a
>>>>> good thing, but the construct of whiteness ÿÿincluding his unstated
>>>>> inference to race mixing as further diluting this vanishing breedÿÿ
>>>>> isnÿÿt
>>>>>
>>>>> about the preservation of a culture, but the total assimilation of
>>>>> several
>>>>> distinct and disparate languages, heritages, histories and legacies
>>>>> which
>>>>> are swallowed up into a homogenized (White) identity in the interest of
>>>>> empire and dominationÿÿfor those who qualify, whiteness is the price of
>>>>>
>>>>> losing who you are.)
>>>>> He goes on to assert that the situation may be worse than Buchanan
>>>>> would
>>>>> have us think: *ÿÿIn the U.S., native-born whites already are
>>>>> second-class
>>>>>
>>>>> citizens in their own country. Unconstitutional group privileges have
>>>>> arisen based on race, gender, and disability. White males no longer
>>>>> have
>>>>> equal rights. ÿÿ*
>>>>>
>>>>> He concludes this article; *ÿÿDemonization of whites is the weapon used
>>>>> by
>>>>> multiculturalists to breakup western civilizationÿÿ Demonization has
>>>>> already
>>>>>
>>>>> demoralized some whites, making them ashamed and fearful of their skin
>>>>> color.ÿÿ*
>>>>>
>>>>> *ÿÿBy the time whites become political minorities, decades of
>>>>> demonization
>>>>>
>>>>> will have prepared the ground for legislation prohibiting their
>>>>> propagation
>>>>> and, perhaps, assigning them to the gulag as a final solution ÿÿ none
>>>>> of
>>>>>
>>>>> this is ordained. faculties could replace multicultural propagandists
>>>>> with
>>>>> real scholars, and legislation could halt or reduce immigration to
>>>>> assimilable numbers. Is western civilization worth the effort? Does
>>>>> anyone
>>>>> any longer know what western civilization is? ÿÿ*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So how come roberts is getting so much play among progressives,
>>>>> including
>>>>> the progressive press, given his history of bigotry and intolerance, as
>>>>> well as having ÿÿservedÿÿ on Reaganÿÿs cabinet as Treasury Secretary
>>>>> (making
>>>>> his essay *ÿÿThe Rich Have Stolen the Economyÿÿ*, a bit absurd)?
>>>>>
>>>>> Could it be that his white supremacist positions, including the
>>>>> assertion
>>>>> of a Zionist occupied Amerikan government, run by foreign Israeli
>>>>> interlopers, tricksters, puppeteers, as well as an entire ethnic group
>>>>> of
>>>>> U.S. citizens with suspicious national allegiance, absolve (Christian)
>>>>> white (and otherwise privileged) Amerikans of their (real and
>>>>> mis-afilliated) guilt, allowing them to address injustices without ever
>>>>> having to examine the root causes, raise their class consciousness, or
>>>>> challenge their own nationalism, Amerikan hubris, entitlement and
>>>>> arrogance.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I ask why ÿÿweÿÿ are promoting Roberts, I am told that he has
>>>>> important
>>>>>
>>>>> points to make, that no one is all good or all bad, that his position
>>>>> in
>>>>> the Reagan Administration lends credibility to those more legitimate
>>>>> assertions ÿÿwe all agree onÿÿ. But even though a broken clock is right
>>>>> twice
>>>>>
>>>>> a day, and Mussolini  made the trains run on time, do we really want,
>>>>> in
>>>>> giving credence to his ÿÿgood pointsÿÿ to legitimize his racist,
>>>>> sexist,
>>>>>
>>>>> ableist bigotry and promote Roberts at the expense of other writers
>>>>> who,
>>>>> though lesser known, might better articulate a vision of
>>>>> anti-imperialism,
>>>>> anti-colonialism, infused justice, inclusion, diversity and
>>>>> self-determination?
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. http://www.thecanadiancharger.com/page.php?id=5&a=133
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. http://cafeintifada.wordpress.com/2009/05/08/654/
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. http://www.vdare.com/roberts/100301_muslims.htm
>>>>>
>>>>> 4. http://www.vdare.com/roberts/061116_friedman.htm
>>>>>
>>>>> 5. http://vdare.com/roberts/west_future.htm
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Peace Is Doable
>>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>> ** WSFDiscuss is an open and unmoderated forum for the exchange of
>>>>> information and views on the experience, practise, and theory of the
>>>>> World
>>>>> Social Forum at any level (local, national, regional, and global) and
>>>>> on
>>>>> related social and political movements and issues.  Join in !**
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> WSFDiscuss mailing list
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>>>>> openspaceforum.net
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>>>>> openspaceforum.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> ** WSFDiscuss is an open and unmoderated forum for the exchange of
>>>>> information and views on the experience, practise, and theory of the
>>>>> World
>>>>> Social Forum at any level (local, national, regional, and global) and
>>>>> on
>>>>> related social and political movements and issues.  Join in !**
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> WSFDiscuss mailing list
>>>>> POST to LIST : Send email to WorldSocialForum-Discuss@
>>>>> openspaceforum.net
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>>>>> openspaceforum.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>   1. *EBook, November 2012: Recovering Internationalism
>>>>   <http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/recovering_internationalism/>.  [A
>>>>
>>>>   compilation of papers from the new millenium. Now free in two download
>>>>   formats] <http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/world_social_forum/>
>>>>   <http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/world_social_forum/>*
>>>>   2.
>>>> *EBook (co-editor), February 2013: World Social Forum: Critical
>>>>   Explorations http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/world_social_forum/
>>>>   <http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/world_social_forum/> *
>>>>   3. *Interface Journal Special (co-editor), November 2012: For the
>>>> Global
>>>>   Emancipation of Labour <http://www.interfacejournal.net/current/>*
>>>>   4. *Blog: http://www.unionbook.org/profile/peterwaterman.
>>>>   <http://www.unionbook.org/profile/peterwaterman.> *
>>>>   5. *Interface Journal Special (Co-Editor) Social Movement
>>>>   Internationalisms. See Call for Papers <http://www.interfacejournal.
>>>> net/>,
>>>>   (Deadline: May 1, 2014). *
>>>>   6.
>>>> *Needed: a Global Labour Charter Movement (2005-Now!)
>>>>   <http://interfacejournal.nuim.ie/wordpress/wp-content/
>>>> uploads/2010/11/Interface-1-2-pp255-262-Waterman.pdf>*
>>>>   7. *Under, Against, Beyond: Labour and Social Movements Confront a
>>>>   Globalised, Informatised Capitalism
>>>>   <http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/under-against-beyond/>(2011) Almost
>>>> 1,000
>>>>   pages of Working Papers, free, from the 1980's-90's.*
>>>>   8. *Google Scholar Citation Index:*
>>>>    *http://scholar.google.com.pe/citations?user=e0e6Qa4AAAAJ
>>>>   <http://scholar.google.com.pe/citations?user=e0e6Qa4AAAAJ> *
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   -
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ** WSFDiscuss is an open and unmoderated forum for the exchange of
>>> information and views on the experience, practise, and theory of the
>>> World
>>> Social Forum at any level (local, national, regional, and global) and on
>>> related social and political movements and issues.  Join in !**
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> openspaceforum.net
>>>
>>>
> _______________________________________________
> ** WSFDiscuss is an open and unmoderated forum for the exchange of
> information and views on the experience, practise, and theory of the World
> Social Forum at any level (local, national, regional, and global) and on
> related social and political movements and issues.  Join in !**
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