• minutes cs 25 Feb09

last modified March 1, 2009 by facilitfsm



 the meeting was supposed to take place using a tool in development by mayfirst/people link  -then reversed to skype chat  -

Paco access problem.. 1

Monica access problem.. 2

let us chat first, then test 2

Bettina. 3

Bettina statement 3

chat work discussion - newsletter 4

Cooking dinner break. 7

talking about the tool 7

Item Chat  - 1 to 1 chat issues. 8

Vertical ordering discussion -  two types of endorsement?. 9

Popularity and importance. 10

Seminar time  and tasks time. 11

take charge button ?. 11

Drafting a text with the tool ?. 11

Paco access problem

[18:42:00] Paco : ciao

[18:42:09] Mallory  : ciao paco, you can follow the IRC chat here: irc://irc.oftc.net/#fsm2009e-newyork and remember to join the meeting by going here: http://wsfcom.mayfirst.org/

[18:45:03] Paco : how i can get in irc

[18:45:16] Mallory  : (you can paste irc://irc.oftc.net/#fsm2009e-newyork into your web browser and it will open the appropraite chat client)

[18:45:39] Mallory  : does any one have questions?

[18:46:05] Paco : does not work


[18:46:15] Mallory  : do you have a mac?

[18:46:30] Paco : yes

[18:46:44] Mallory  : you can download the program colloquy http://colloquy.info/  or adium http://adiumx.com/  then when you follow the IRC link it will open the chat in one of these programs

[18:48:01] Paco : ok chat room name?

[18:51:07] Mallory  : ##fsm2009e-newyork

 [19:11:04] Paco : I don get in the room

[19:15:55] Mallory  : which chat program do you have installed?

[19:17:30] Paco : colloquy

 [19:18:19] Mallory  : if you are in safari or firefox, you can put this into your browser and it will open colloquy for you : irc://irc.oftc.net/##fsm2009e-newyork

[19:17:55] Pierre : hello i am alone in irc ??

 [19:18:32] Pierre : #fsm2009e-newyork  is this the right channel

 [19:18:36] Jason : Hi - I'm getting in... sorry for being late...

[19:18:43] Mallory  : ok. let me join with just one #

[19:19:23] Mallory  : yes, so pierre and i are in the IRC room #fsm2009e-newyork

[19:20:31] Paco : did not work , strange

[19:20:57] Mallory  : in colloquy you can start a new connection to irc.oftc.net

[19:21:34] Pierre : paco why not use chatzilla ? http://openfsm.net/projects/fsm2009e-newyork/irc-instructions  i used this  ... uploaded chatzilla and clicked on the link and it workeds

 [19:22:03] Mallory  : irc://irc.oftc.net/#fsm2009e-newyork

 [19:45:01] Paco  : the server of irc

[19:45:10] Mallory: irc.oftc.net

[20:01:45] Paco  : ho litigato con irc mezz'ora .....riproverò, strano è semplice


Monica access problem

[19:31:25] Jason : anyone else online?

 [19:31:54] Monica : me but nothing is working for me

[19:32:09] Pierre : no chatzilla?

[19:32:14] Monica : no

[19:32:20] Mallory  : have you been able to log into the website, Monica ? http://wsfcom.mayfirst.org, the password is g

[19:34:17] Mallory: Monica , what browser are you using?

[19:34:27] Monica  : explorer

[20:02:34] Monica  : a me nn si apre niente

[20:02:40] Monica  : una pagina bianca...



let us chat first, then test

[19:32:31] Monica  : not at all, no way this url open to me a blank page: please let's use skype that it's easier for all please use our shared time not spending energies in hard platform not viable for all

 [19:34:50] Pierre  : (well.... let us keep cool about this first attempt.. once we have overcome the stepping in ... we will have the functional problems ... ) But now this is not a testing bed ... Monica  how much time to you have .?  and we can  stay on skype first  .. and address the urgent issues

[19:34:58] Mallory: Monica  - i think that we can use skype for chat for now. but we are trying to grow our process. and it may not be easy, but it is necessary

[19:35:26] Monica  : necessary to us? why?

[19:35:40] Mallory: chatting over skype is hardly organizing

[19:36:05] Monica  : bur march 28 and G8 it's after tomorrow

[19:36:05] Pierre  : mallory dont be ideological chatting  is chatting , and close enough to talking

[19:36:22] Monica  : and we don't have time to implement in full group those kind of news...

 [19:37:10] Jason  : hey hey, we haven't even started.  Let's give it a try!


[19:37:15] Pierre  : well , we are three to five people around ...how much time do you have Monica ....

[19:37:43] Monica  : not too much...

[19:37:54] Pierre  : meaning ?

[19:38:44] Jason  : We do have urgent issues, but key people are missing (Thiago first of all).  We had some tasks from last week and need to check if anything has been done.

[19:39:10] Pierre  : well it is not for this that we want to test this tool....so we can address the basic urgent to do  points on skype i mean ... and then arrange ourselves who want for the test

[19:40:16] Monica  : I agree

[19:40:31] Pierre  : then we make a good more relax test

[19:40:51] Jason  : ok - I think that makes sense.  Is it ok, Mallory?

[19:40:52] Monica  : you can test it in a smaller group of skilled people, offering to us a more viable tools

[19:42:53] Mallory: the webpage is incredibly simple. just as simple as google.com for example

[19:43:33] Pierre  : , Monica  ..... -it seems  we will  have to break with you   the first barrier  access, which  you will have anyway ...to access irc i mean and the mayfirst page )

then  we can concentrate on the functional problems and the meaning and possible added value of the tool

 [19:44:56] Pierre  : (Monica ) so today ....or at a later date, depending your availability  this barrier will have to be broken, like for people registering on openfsm and getting lost doing it

[19:44:58] Mallory: the password is g

 [19:45:26] Monica  : when I open the page the page for me it's white, and I'm not so skilled to solve this problem, so I can't fix it

[19:46:15] Mallory: a very important thing for your computer would be to install mozilla firefox to use as a web browser

[19:46:22] Monica  : I cant because it's not compatible with some fair software I have installed so it's a huge problem

[19:47:50] Pierre  : well, friends,  let us keep relax at it..... (Monica  you should be able to access web irc ... but may be we can get in to this after we adress the hot issues .)...°

[19:48:41] normafer  : Hola, siento llegar tarde. Concuerdo con Mónica, me parece mejor continuar con el skype si hay dificultades para el acceso



[19:54:31] bettina  : hallo everybody!

 [19:57:16] bettina  : is the chat here or are we trying to use the new tool? if so, give please the 2 instructions again!

[19:57:48] Mallory: we are talking on skype for right now, maybe later we can use the tool as a test and then talk about how we can improve it

[19:59:39] bettina  : ok, i go away for a bit, preparing dinner for gaia, but i keep looking


Bettina statement

hallo everybody, a day in delay!!!!

i would like to share my ideas about  weekly chats in general and also

about the last one ( yesterday)...

i have started to bring some point of view about the discussion and post it in fact a day later directly on the open skype chat.... did it go online, or is it only on my computer? just to know;

since i do not know,


i write this mail, with wich i am more trustful

and a bit  randomly i would like to add/say/share about mallory's tool and the discussion around it:


generally i would like to say that the chat tool is not for everybody of us ( for me at least) the best tool to make people participate because one is conditioned by the day and time of its schedule,; and for me this is a big limitation


so i think it could be a good idea to find also another way to allow people to be involved even when is not available at a decided time .


i wish there would be a tool-way to allow everybody that wishes to get involved giving his/hers specific time resource without the frustration of having to give up due to chat schedule or for lack of open tool


one other limitation i see about this skype chat model is the confusion that can raise about the subject of discussion ecc ( I believe mallory explained my observation in a much better way; if I understood right what she meant! Mallory?)


for this reason i think that her tool proposal is to be considered, it may need some little developing but i think it may be of good use ( I managed to test it by myself and it seemed ok);


Pierre: i think that whatever the tool is, it must be simple to use if you want people to participate  ! give up something sometimes! perfection is not always perfectly efficient!


mallory: can this tool be used as a chat also? i see it as a black board with no space limits,  we write the things we want to say,  and when i want to say something more i can add it or cancel the previous and overwrite on my own statement,  and when it comes to the end we

cancel the "chat part" and leave the important concepts, decisions, agenda schedule?


When one talks about participation, decision making, involvement, ecc,I think sometimes we miss some steps in the process


It’ll have also to go through sharing  the objectives, the final vision, the goals, the strategies ecc, not only acceptability of some statements! I have seen at times the lack of direct sharing of projects acc which does not mean to put public one's opinion


Perhaps it must pass by the acceptance of the meaning of the words

participation involvement consensous, decision making model ecc i guess

it depends on the item agenda to discuss; the contents


it is also about being transparent about the process.


and again, is there the possibility of changing time/day of some of

these group discussions? for me it is much better a couple of hours

later for example, almost any day of the week. I wish to try the new

tool together, we should in fact speak about it directly by using it

and on it!!!! is it clear? :-(


its late now, and i may have explain very bad my concepts;


please give a feedback


lets try to build a common useful efficient way


to communicate and act together

chat work discussion - newsletter

[19:50:16] Jason  : So here are my urgent points:

1. Newsletter: it's now almost a month after Belem a nothing has been sent.  Why?  Is there a problem in the WSF Office?

2. Assemblies declarations and contacts: all the vital information is still in one person's hands.  They have not been sent to the comcom list as requested. This is a practical obstacle - and we cannot go forward unless it is solved.

3. Producing a press release with a synthesise of the results coming out from Belem and the mobilisation agenda

4. Preparing a second communication for the "reporting" process - in a simplified openfsm space

[19:52:30] Pierre  : ok point 1?

[19:52:58] Pierre  : may be  everyone is away for carnival  ?

 [19:54:33] Pierre  : i have had no contact - nor received mail from them  -thiago did not answer mail after he declared the stolen laptop

[19:55:58] Jason  : The last 3 days for Carnival, not the last 3 weeks!  But in any case, there is a bottleneck and procedure problem, so maybe we need to change the way the newsletter is produced.  I suggest to write to the Liason group and ask them to clear the tasks and roles for the office, so we know if Thiago can work on certain priorities and share tasks.



 [19:57:54] Pierre  : (i think the date of issuing newsletter could be communicated in advace andcollective  work should start well in advance on the appropriate list http://openfsm.net/projects/communication-commission/lists/practical-info-gt

 (this is the list for those that want to be in the working group preparing newsletter )


19:59:22] Jason  : Pierre - in theory, yes.  In practice, this has not worked.

[20:01:40] Pierre  : Jason let us not mix the tool which is ok , with the organizationna;/behavioral problem, jason... it will work he we ask the office to plan newsletter and announce launching dates


[19:59:34] Pierre  who is on the list  : aleceregatti     No     Contact   

Cabral  Yes  Contact  unsubscription pending user confirmation: 2008-10-16 00:57:48

Candyce Rocha  Yes  Contact 

fsmsite  Yes  Contact 

Jason Nardi  Yes  Contact 

Monica  Di Sisto  No  Contact 

Pierre  Yes  Contact 


[20:00:53] Mayo  : Hi

 [20:03:24] Jason  : Not a dialogue between me and Pierre here....!!! 

What I would like to get to is a common agreement on how to proceded in the best way to get the newsletter out as soon as possible in 4 languages, with the texts that are practically ready.  Any suggestion?

[20:04:21] Pierre  : i understand you are talking for this next newsletter...

[20:05:00] Pierre  : we can draft a text and as i suggested to thiago edit in openfsm  so he can  have a html version of it when he comes back

[20:06:24] normafer  : Jason, ¿quién tiene los textos" prácticamente listos"? Yo puedo hacer la traducción del portugués al español

[20:10:58] Pierre  : (los textos tendrian que por lo menos  mencionar la necesidad de hacer reportes.....jason podrias finalizarlo ? )

[20:12:49] Jason  : Pierre, can you paste the last version here?  I cannot access my gmail account now.

[20:13:38] Pierre  : si ... y lo ponemos aqui  http://openfsm.net/projects/communication-commission y  traducimos con googletranslatea otraspaginas asi lo tiene listo para su regreso  .....()

[20:16:00] Jason  : I cannot find it

 [20:17:56] Pierre  : got it, it is not a monument of litterature


1) World Social Forum 2009: expressing alternatives from the Amazon heart


During six days in the beginning of 2009, citizens, movements and organizations from 142 countries gathered in the city of Belem for the IX World Social Forum. Panels, debates, seminars, cultural activities, marches, demonstrations, meetings and open spaces for direct interactions among 113 thousands participants that attended this edition of the centralized WSF event in the heart of the Amazon region.



Participants came from the five continents. Among the 5808 organizations, 489 came from Africa,155 from North America, 119 from Central Americal, 334 from Asia, 4193 from South America and 27 from Oceania. 1300 indigenous peoples coming from 50 countries gave the originary peoples accent to this year WSF, representing the most significant participation of indigenous peoples in the whole WSF history.



2) WSF 2009 sixth day: the collective expression of another possible world


In the sixth day of the WSF 2009, the central stage of UFRA (Universidade Federal Rural do Amazonas, part of WSF territory) gathered thousands of activists and representatives coming from decentralized assemblies to the final Assembly, where results and declarations of the WSF activities and meetings were presented to the world.


Visit this link to read the results of the assemblies: http://www.fsm2009amazonia.org.br/programme/alliance-day/results-of-assemblies





3) Other results of WSF




You are very welcome to send your results, initiatives and declarations from seminars and other activities the World social forum 2009 in Belém to allow the public to take part of your advancements. Please send your text to resultfsm2009-discussion@lists.openfsm.net.


The results will be posted on openfsm.net/projects/resultfsm2009/project-home and www.fsm2009amazonia.org.br/noticias/convergencias-assembleias-e-iniciativas. There, you can already find statements from most of the assemblies held during the WSF 2009 as well as results from other activities.





3) Media coverage and reports




ciranda - http://www.ciranda.net/spip/rubrique37.html


wsftv – http://www.wsftv.net/


foro de radios - http://www.foroderadios.org/index.php


fsminfo – digital clipping of blogs and websites – http://openfsm.net/projects/fsm2009-info/blog


mainstream media clipping - ????



4) IC meeting





5) WSF participation certificates




[20:18:51] Pierre  : ( you will observe that i am very self controlled about reporting .... :x)

[20:20:54] Jason  : ok - since point 4 and 5 are not ready, they go in next newsletter.  As for 3) there is some text from the press release sent on the 1st of feb that could be used.

[20:22:45] Pierre  : for 2 we at least need a message asking to report anywhere on internet and saying we wil indicate next week how to post the links to those report  ( and aslo how to report in openfsm ) mobilize to report  - report to mobilize ....

[20:24:01] Monica  : I can suggest the part for the press (3)

[20:24:59] Jason  : ok - I have added the text in the wiki here: http://openfsm.net/projects/communication-commission/post-wsf2009-belem-newsletter

[20:27:04] Pierre  : i can  add a short paragraph in  2 about reporting

[20:27:36] Jason  : I also think that n.1 needs some rewording (I'll look at that).  So let's send this text in the comcom discussion list (for this time, so people realise what is being sent) - corrections by Friday, so Thiago can send it asap.

[20:28:15] Monica  : (y) (lots of..)

[20:28:39] Pierre  : send it without addition in 2 and rewording of 3 ? i disagree

[20:29:11] Jason  : with all the additions (short short short).

[20:29:28] Monica  : annette already added a point 3

[20:29:32] Monica  : so mine is 4) it'sn enough?

[20:29:49] Pierre  : then am talking of addition to point 3

[20:29:57] Monica  : ... (short short short...)

[20:30:19] Pierre  : yessss

[20:30:21] Jason  : yes - corrected.

[20:30:34] Pierre  : by tomorrow . morning

Cooking dinner break

[20:30:47] Jason  : [I need to take a break for dinner - can be back in 1/2 hr approx]

[20:31:00] Mayo  : ok for me

[20:31:06] Pierre  : same for me ...

[20:31:10] Monica  : I'll be out at that time but I'll do my homeworks

[20:31:14] Monica  : bye folks a pleasure, as usual

[20:31:43] Pierre  : sim

[20:32:21] Paco  : okey later

[20:32:27] Paco  : also i'cooking

talking about the tool

[21:40:53] Jason  : [back]

[21:51:15] Pierre  : ok

[21:57:17] Mallory: so jason and pierre - are there others here to finish the meeting?

[21:58:25] Jason  : We're not enough to go on with this meeting as far as decisions to be taken.  So let's go ahead and test the tool

 [21:58:48] Mallory: i will need to reset the tool, ok we should be able to use it again

[22:00:27] Pierre  : can we just define the game we play now  ( semantically) during the test i mean (we can have the 10 working group agenda definition or other game )

[22:01:42] Mallory: let's make an agenda we can just begin and then continue to chat

[22:02:46] Pierre  : ok  then we initialize the various groups with their names ?

 [22:03:28] Mallory: in the future, i want to revert the software to allow us to use our names instead of symbols http://wsfcom.mayfirst.org

[22:03:49] Mallory: we can just edit and erase the previous test text

[22:06:51] Jason  : ok I see 5 groups.  what now?

[22:07:11] Mallory: Add an agenda item

[22:07:17] Pierre  : well i guess we need to draft content

[22:07:18] Mallory: Or modify an existing item, This is pierre's vision of how we should prioritize the agenda

[22:08:29] Pierre  : nooo, this is just the list of agreed groups, or a list of group at least...

[22:08:56] Mallory: so are we talking about the agenda or are we talking about groups? sorry, maybe i misunderstood the topic

[22:09:04] Jason  : I'm getting a bit confused.

 [22:09:23] Mallory: Jason: are you confused about how to use the software?

[22:09:32] Pierre  : i have started the idea : make an agenda for each of the groups simultaneously, so everyone can browse and make suggestions

[22:09:49] Mallory: right - that is what i said, this is your vision of how to structure the agenda

[22:09:59] Pierre  : nooo / yess : we can play  also the idem agenda that anyone can propose, but that means defining the items first ? while the groups are something predefined  that is why i started with them  but am ready to change the game ....

[22:11:40] Mallory: no, it's okay that you did this. it's one approach. but i think that if you allow for less control by any one person, or even previously agreed-upon structure, that you will see patterns in the text and item

[22:12:09] Mallory: less control is the idea

[22:12:41] Pierre  : okay  but no structure at all may make the starting weird

[22:12:53] Mallory: but i feel that this software is too complex and "big" for what is needed by the ic com com. especially since there are only a few active members. excluding people is bad - and today proved that this is what this software will do, ultimately

[22:13:31] Pierre  : you should not make a generalization  of what happened

[22:13:46] Jason  : ok - so we have a list of 5 items.  whatever starting point.  how do we discuss each one?

[22:14:06] Pierre  : i guess we make inputs and parallel inputs in the same box  if we have differing views...

 [22:15:56] Mallory: no, if there are differing views, you should feel empowered to edit and rewrite or you can make another agenda item if it is parallel yet conflicting

[22:16:21] Jason  : I entered A though modify and changed the text

[22:16:22] Mallory: rescind endorsement  means to take away your endorsement, the more people endorse an item it floats to the top of the list, the fewer endorsements, it sits at the bottom, and you can take away your endorsement

 [22:18:05] Jason  : ok, so we are "voting" a statement, which can be modified by all participants

 [22:19:19] Pierre  : So it means that within our 5+ items that we see as parallel groups there will be an ordering of priority ... (which may not be completely relevant ... let us see)

[22:19:32] Mallory: we can see modifications in the history, no need to state this

 [22:22:01] Mallory: now that there are 10 items, there is no more room for adding items, we must now work on existing items to make them more specific

[22:22:32] Pierre  : well they are specific ... but they lack content

[22:24:57] Pierre  : mallory : no line breaks (sweat)

[22:28:18] Mallory: it's on the list, dear pierre! i agree that this is an important feature. something like filtered html

[22:29:38] Pierre  : (well from last week "atmosphere" .. i thought you were in position to have it for this week test ..) hence my observation

[22:30:07] Mallory: i am working alone here, i want to make this my priority at may first, but this past week has been hectic with installing hardware and other member needs, yes, mfpl is very very busy now...i would love nothing more than to make this my daily work, i promise you

 Item Chat  - 1 to 1 chat issues

[22:37:14] Jason  : Mallory, let me get it straight: people would continue to discuss on IRC for each issue and post on the tool at the same time?  The result being an agreed text and priority?

[22:38:53] Mallory: we are working - and this time i have help from daniel - to put a chat in the window. so that there is no need to have a chat window open with skype or irc

[22:39:08] Pierre  : but ....there are 10 items and  there is only one chat ... i guess 10 small chats could be relevant ....so people that want to discuss around one item can do so

[22:39:36] Mallory: the chat will be 1 to 1: if i want to talk to pierre then i would click on his symbol (or his name) and then a little window would open so that i could send him a message,: we have no plans of making a global chat maybe we do a global chat before the workshop to answer any questions

[22:40:54] Pierre  : but why not have also an item related chat

 [22:41:25] Mallory: explain how you think this would work

[22:41:51] Pierre  : several ones that i can openclose  in by a click ,with a highlight indicating that someone has made an input  (like skype) : modify /view/history/chat - for each item  -this creates a collective space

[22:43:04] Mallory: okay. so to have a second button that opens a chat about a particular item that simply logs a bunch of posts from people

[22:43:15] Pierre  : yes

[[22:43:48] Pierre  : so we have the informal talk  linked to the written stuff

[22:43:56] Mallory: right

22:43:32] Mallory: is it also helpful to have the ability to speak 1 to 1? say i need to ask jason "why did you change my item that way?"

[22:44:02] Pierre  : sure 1 to 1 is also useful

Vertical ordering discussion -  two types of endorsement?

also i think the vertical ordering of the items should be less meaninful...

[22:47:35] Jason  : depends pierre -- it is useful to prioritize an agenda, less if you are using it for thematic groups

[22:47:57] Pierre  : yes Jason  ...i mean that there could be an indicator of endorsement for each item that would be ongoing   and besides there could be another global positioning endorsement that would be switched on or off depending what the scope is

- intrinsic endorsement and relative endorsement I mean there are two differing dimensions of endorsement : we have to differentiate them

 [22:47:58] Mallory: i understand that there are parallel groups and items that will not necessarily take priority because it is moot. I think it makes more sense to order by endorsement rather than which items were written first (that is how the alphabet is assigned)

 [22:49:55] Mallory: i see what you mean. why don't we just leave the idea of endorsement open. maybe we say "like" or "don't like" that way we make everything intrinsic, and this will inform our interpretation of relative prioritization

[22:50:40] Pierre  : i do not see how see would address the two dimensions i point out :saying i agree on A  is different than saying B is more urgent than A

[22:51:36] Mallory: exactly : so we just say i agree on A, then when we get a global picture of how people agree, we can see that if everyone agrees on A and no one agrees on B then A is obviously more important than B

 [22:52:48] Pierre  : not necessarily ... we may have a non consensual item , that everyone deems important to address

[22:53:12] Mallory: can you give an example? how do you determine when something is non consensual?

[22:53:26] Jason  : It depends on how the agenda is set out in the first place.

[22:53:31] Mallory: or how do you determine what everyone agrees with?

[22:53:57] Pierre  : by the level of endorsement of the text item  = people give intrinsic endorsement. Now people can give another answer  - classify the items  according some ordering criteria ( importance urgency  ..)these are two different things

Example :  everyone can say that "press" is very important , and yet  not agree on the internal agenda of the press group

[22:56:04] Mallory: but they won't be saying "press" is very important. unless there is a box with just the word "press" in it

[22:56:17] Pierre  : yes they might ; There is global - inexplicit perception of something   gut feeling  strategic approach, whatever you call it

[22:58:14] Mallory: there is no place for that in the tool :). That is what chat is for, to express global feeling. This tool requires people to verbalize and actualize their feeling into a statement, a task, a poem, whatever, just like at the assembly meeting that we had - it requires people to stand up and make a proposal, then we can all work on that proposal together to improve it and hone it and make it a consensual product of the entire group

[22:59:16] Pierre  : yes but the fact it is consensual does not mean it is automatically ranked as more important

[22:59:30] Mallory: then don't think of it as a ranking of importance, think of it as popularity

[22:59:51] Pierre  : well i think there is a bias, in using this single scale

[23:00:43] Pierre  :  ... i do not see why it would be a problem to have two levers instead of one... but let us address this in another session

To make examples of the assembly we had : impuls fsm We reworded the proposal with people until they were consensual, acceptable, but the importance of each proposal was very different for each people

[23:02:15] Jason  : I'll give you an example.  Let's say we need to work on 4 issues but need to decide what needs to be done first.  Issue A could be considered the most urgent (send the damn newsletter!!!), but little agreement on the content (endorsement). Issue B could have less urgency, but more consensus.  Unless we start out with a defined agenda, how do we set the "urgency/Priority" matter?

[23:02:52] Pierre  : so the acceptability of a statement , and its importance are two different things - agree with Jason, importance needing to be qualified  ( urgency ,  weight , etc...)

[23:04:26] Mallory: hmmm

[23:04:50] Pierre  : in some session ( the  internet  rights ) you can have a single criteria operation , in other (the agenda  game ) you need two criteria

In the assembly we did not activate the second criteria ;.. but when i drafted a sinthesis i had to activate it  ;)

Popularity and importance

Also if we draft agenda items , lack of endorsement may just indicate lack of interest by present participants , popularity as you say , which is not an objective indicator of importance

[23:07:06] Mallory: it is!

[23:08:34] Pierre  : that is a very interesting dicussion ... how do you help  new things to emerge if you equate popularity with importance

[23:09:17] Mallory: i think the question is how can something be deemed important by the core organizers when clearly the larger group doesn't have interest, this is the tyranny of structurelessness, which i think is rampant in the "linearity of single time line chat"

If IC Com is hierarchical, this is acceptable. i see no problem with core organizers controlling the agenda. but if it states itself to be otherwise, then i think lack of interest must inform importance, or non-importance, rather

[23:13:33] Jason  : I would look at it from another point of view: if we have a way to allow more people to participate in IC com activities and make the discussion more accessible, then the "core" group will be larger and have less control of the agenda, without there being total caos or no interest (as has been the case for several years in the IC)

[23:14:17] Mallory: tada!

[23:15:23] Pierre  : for me the chat is the tyranny of time : obliges to tackle  the structure of the problem  by establishing an agenda   and order of priority in processing the points ....

Now if we use a simultaneous operation , we still have to agree on each item formulation,  and in some cases on the relative   importance of item but we escape the tyranny of time ... 

The structuring is a more delicate issue : the initial structuring of the agenda remains the most delicate point ....but this can be improved with practising, and paying attention to the way we work ... that is why i suggested an agenda by groups

[23:17:04] Mallory: what has determined "the way we work" to this point?i think having a very open tool is the best way to allow a non-hierarchical way of working to emerge

[23:18:59] Pierre  : Mallory ... so far this tool has been used for"  internet rights " this is not a “work” .. so let us consider things quietly: working implies making inputs and some collective frame, and taking responsibilities

When i said way to work  ,  i meant groups  and this is what we are facing ... building groups that have some consistence and vision

[23:21:28] Mallory: accountability is certainly an issue

Seminar time  and tasks time

[23:21:34] Pierre  : again we can use such a  tool in different sequences or use cases

[23:22:07] Mallory: which this tool cannot help. well, perhaps it can based on what jason raised: that this tool helps more people have control over the agenda, and typically this translates into empowerment and ownership ---> accountability

[23:22:08] Pierre  : some seminar like  when we try to explore new ways  or test visions

[23:22:20] Mallory: yes, it's good for brainstorming, i think the work of accountability must be done in another way i.e. assigning the tasks or agenda items to certain people and then the follow up and check in process

[23:23:38] Pierre  : i am speaking more of wording the agenda  what could be done ought to be done  ... then who is going to make it comes next

take charge button ?

[23:23:54] Jason  : yes - but can it be that people endorse on one side and... take responsability on the other (i.e. propose themselves for the tasks)?

 [23:24:06] Mallory: i was thinking just this, jason

[23:24:26] Pierre  : well this depends on the general quality of the group, we know that there are more talkers than doers, so we need to maintain a reasonable proportion of both

[23:25:44] Mallory: for now there is a huge tendency to work and collaborate with chat. this is okay. we are simply trying to integrate another form of collaboration. the two can be done simultaneously. and for now, perhaps the bulk of the work be done with chat and occasionally we set up a meeting online to focus solely on the collaboration with the tool

Each kind of collaboration will give different effects and have its own characteristics

[23:26:19] Pierre  : that is fine ... just need realistic scenario of use ...

[23:26:45] Mallory: just like we talked about last week. i think for now we chose low-hanging fruit

[23:26:45] Pierre  : i am purposedly proposing the agenda ( vairous variants )  but also am open to other usages but need to concretize them ...comcom has some seminars ( with agenda ;) )  and has a lot of chats for agenda

[23:28:49] Jason  : I think this discussion is really very interesting... but I need to leave it now... ok - goodnight!

Drafting a text with the tool ?

 [23:30:52] Pierre  : we could use the tool to draft the  newsletter .... each item being a paragraph

 [23:32:17] Mallory: that is really brilliant . i mean to use it to draft the newsletter

[23:34:30] Pierre  : yes mallory i think there are potential use case.. through concrete situation we can explore .. and you see in this use case that we need to agree on the order of issues  and on the exact woding for each issue; Order of paragraphs and wording of paragraphs : two different things in my opinion

[23:37:46] Mallory: yes, this makes sense, ok.