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last modified September 28, 2011 by facilitfsm

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see videos and notes of 26th september

start 6mn -  end in the Kurdish presentation

    start on answers to questions about kurdistan presentation  until  point 3 and meal 120mn 

    • WSF IC intercom meeting Amed 09/27/11 08:41AMWSF IC intercom... 145mn 
    • start  on point 1after meal and until the end  pause between  50mn and 75 mn   130 mn is documentary projected  about MSF (soon on line )
    • Notes on intercom meeting 27th



    Raffaela :agenda. 1

    Situation in Kurdistan -. 1

    Tuncay - there were many questions –. 3

    Financial sustainability  point 3. 4

    Summarizing. 7

    Discussion on organization towards wsf2013 point 1. 7

    Presenting from methodology commission the online exchange spaces and guiding principles version 2011 document  7

    Inter commission group in FSMM... 8

    Vision from  Galiza. 8

    Three Document on organization to be prepared. 9

    On translation -. 10

    A document by francine. 11

    Documents about Kurdish situation. 11

    Video of MSF - with image from the opening march - the workshop time and the march of women. 11

    start 6mn -  end in the Kurdish presentation


    Erdal - introduction

    Raffaela :agenda

     in first place discussion on local political situation and collect signature  for solidarity call

    1/ organization to walk the path during 2012  2/ involve other actors  new struggles 3/ financial sustainability  existence of office 4/ preparation of Dhaka 5/ translation

    Hamouda will coordinate the morning

    Situation in Kurdistan -

    Tuncay : Striking part is solidarity - recent development needs solidarity - Kurdish movement wants liberation of 5000 political prisoner - end of isolation of leader Ocala and free as soon as possible – Kurdish people to speak their language in education – we started a campaign – of civil disobedience - people died 500 children died and 1000 in prison – important violation of civil rights - we need solidarity – we want Kurdish identity to be accepted in the constitution - 100 of the 5000 prisoner are seriously ill - recently some military operation took place – 4000 activist from cry for freedom and peace trade unionist and teacher were detained while they were doing legal activities – there is no political prisoner status - assimilated to terrorism - a family of 7 died out of air strikes accurse the border -Turkish media do not cover properly the situation – yesterday in batman there was a fight between guerilla and army with casualties on both side - house were searched and a women and child died – we want this to end peacefully – Kurdish movement ask for cease fire, prisoners to be freed and negotiation to start between government and various Kurdish movement to start again- since they have stopped – violence make negotiations impossible - it is clear that government does not want to negotiate not to loose his popularity among Turkish people - we started a campaign and the catching phrase of the forum was “ freedom will prevail” - every time we take action government is answering with violence – people de - pleas follow what is happening – the international scene has given a role to turkey and a legitimacy to destroy the Turkish movement - Turkey is seen as a peace monger in the middle east but at home situation is extremely difficult - we ask for negotiation and truth commission to be established – 20000 death in Kurdistan b state - many leaders have been assassinated – we do not get any answer – we would like to establish a peace assembly and we do not receive answers – there is an open conflict with military operation - every morning we have to say that we are Turkish and happy to be Turkish - after six year old children are undergoing a campaign of assimilation - we would like Kurdish MP to be allowed in the parliament recently 33 seats were won and 6 MPs are detained – this is illegal MP should not be detained – so in solidarity other MPs Kurdish have decided not to go to parliament – this is an overview of situation – I would also remind of massacres that took place in the 80s we have 700 sites of burial in Kurdistan – in the bilge village there are village protectors and those who are not protecting the village are taken by force and killed by the military - state is giving arms to people to massacre the population media talks about isolated cases – local radios try to make news available - also working for Armenian minority and other so they can enjoy freedom and democracy

    Hamouda – thank you - we ask Turkish friend to make a document we translate it in many language and we circulate in a broad way

     Moema : thanks for what you have told us – it is crucial we use all the channels that we have – in latin America there is very little information about this - create list in the IC about these questions

    1/ You spoke of other minorities – are they repressed the same way as the Kurds

    2/ Relation between Kurdish and Turkish civil society

    3/ Other connection within Kurdistan and other areas than turkey

    Francine : thank you - questions - 1/ what about the boycott in parliament

    2/ Has there been Turkish immigration in the Kurdistan region

    What we hear is that there is a conflict with the army about the secular state while government is open to religious state -3/ is there a difference in approach related to Kurdish questions between state a and army

    Aala – thank you : - we in Tunisia have been asking the state to give support to Kurdish people – in march 2011 when revolutionary process started in Syria - they say if they see Kurds in the demonstration they are separatist - in may in Syria the government gave citizenship to the Kurds - now they are together in the demonstration - in Iran three Kurdish activists that asked for freedom of not observe Ramadan were executed - see the struggles forms related to dictatorships in the region

    Gina : thank you – 1/ you spoke about weight of Turkey in the region and the alliance with USA - 2/ what is the influence on Kurdistan of application to enter in Europe and 3/ what is the situation of women rights in Kurdistan I was impressed on the number of workshops on women right and sexual miniotry -but in the activity there were only men in the table

    Tuncay - there were many questions –

    There were large genocide to ethnicity and religion – number of Armenian have drastically dropped after sixth of September there were acts of terror on minority - but this did not work on Kurds - new policies are in place to push Kurdish people away

    In 60’s there were millions of Kurdish and now they are less 4000 villages have been emptied and migrate to big cities – but they managed to keep their identity -we use picture for our campaigns showing politics of forces migration

    Kurdistan would be 40 millions and 8 millions in north Kurdistan – Turkey 8 millions in Iran in Iraq and Syria we do not know - movements are different - in Iraq they fought against Saddam they got political autonomy and visibility – in Turkey with PKK they started to fight - in Iran Kurdish are recognize as a different population – but on a daily basis this is forgotten

    Any person living in turkey is Turk according to the constitution - we are not rcognized a right -  this is article that cannot be removed - there are three main articles in the  (end of broadcast )  constitution going against Kurdish identity and cant be removed - the policy of forced migration is happening also in Jewish Turkmens Kurdish we have ethnics and also villages groups- they are some groups in Turkey that are fighting for Kurdish rights - government is trying to show itself as a moderate but it is conservative - army is grouped as a laic group- they are advised by USA -there is an agreement between government police and army autonomous on how to deal with Kurdish movement - governors are named by the state and none is Kurdish – governors have the right to fire any local elected person – UN have no power on Turkey we have raised questions to EU and UN – we have made demands on emptied villages – USA position is clear – whatever action is made is detained - many candidacies were cancelled by government demonstration took pace with casualties 33 MP in parliament 6 were dismissed – the other decided to boycott until they get constitutional right – we have democratic movement for women - several association that give support to women - studies are carried out by local organizations – in politics Kurdish try that as any women and men have political functions – women suffer from rape – Kurdish movement has launched a campaign to fight for women freedom – we are happy to say that tis movement is quite strong – in the 8Os when lib movement started women took to the street and fought - women are really present – although actually - you can get more information about the different movement if you want

    Gina - question on sexual diversity - a women said there a was woman’s army autonomous within this guerilla struggle how significant is this group is my question clear ?

    (broadcast restarted now )

    start on answers to questions about kurdistan presentation  until  120mn 


    Tuncay - there is a woman group - there is a confederation we try to broaden it – we created a group on gynecology - we have created relations with this group – women have developed armed way against masculine forces - in Iran Syria turkey there are guerilla women

    This notion about homosexuality or third sex as we call them – there are receiving a lot of pressure from the local people - seven years ago we started a group on this and we were questioned by local groups – activities have taken place in Istanbul Ankara and Kurdistan - in MSF we had .. if we want to create democratic society – every individual has to make the most of those possibilities - although minorities are considered Turkish - in Syria the water supply is cut off – there has been a struggle against oppression down there – finally Kurds have received some freedom their political parties have been recognized- we are fighting here and also in Syria - a conflict between Arab people and Kurdish people - yesterday I saw a woman that had suffered severely - we are trying a union with those people – the freedom movement among Kurdish people is against violence - we accept only legitimate defense – guerilla groups are legitimate violence - we only carry on combat against state violence – we are not guerilla - I speak about legitimate defense - women should be able to defend their interests – women are not sent to the front to fight - we have military groups in Kurdistan that believe I violence - we use it only in case of legitimate defense we oppose military approach -

    Thank you – we would like to show solidarity with you

    Hamouda - our first break -

    Discussion about interpretation - change of schedule and addition of Turkish - flexibility is necessary but there are limits

    After break

    Hamouda - Olivier and Rita had made a paper on inter commission which was not approved to be discussed for this meeting

    Have a side committee of 5 people that will help Maghreb Mashrek inter commission group exposed yesterday – this group could help methodology  Galiza

    a forum – so this group gives an input on - so that Gina Francine and Pierre and Javier to make this in a text form

    Present a proposal from methodology Pierre

    Mallory change the agenda make point 3 first


    Financial sustainability  point 3

    Gina - Helio - those who support the forum don’t want to get involved any more - resources commission propose to make a series of project that would also support the process – how to being this

    Meeting in united state s – what was suggested in LG was to write letters for short term financing

    Outside Paris that each organization of IC make a yearly contribution for the office

    Gina : priority is supporting WSF office –there a on line possibilities of work in the commission methodology - it is difficult to organize - difficult to make seminar proposals if online activity is not there

    Michel – in Paris we spoke about possibility of IC organization to pay for WSF office – from when ? if we are not asked we will wait -why in brazil ? maybe better in Maghreb mashrek - apart from historical reason –

     Moema - 1/ up to now have unity of the process - if in 2004 go to India then divide in 3 in 2006 then Nairobi etc – I have doubts there is continuity - arrive to have a person like Helio – accessible to all – when commission are fragile ( is fundamental to maintain continuity of IC - is not office of forums is office of IC continuity – people that will host the forum has a lot of work - I think that it is not a good idea -may be 5 years in the future - with someone having the memory know by all – I have accompanied change of office in other organization - and it takes times

    2/ about financing – we need a deeper assessment – WSF forum process was 60% funded bu international cooperation novib aed -they have no more resource or will or possibility to guarantee the WSF– imad from novib was the last one to support the process – it will be difficult to get this type of process - we have made several calls to IC organization- review who are in capacity to fund - - as we have moved to include more organizations of Asia and Africa means less organizations with funding capacity

    I think that FSMM friends should orientate us – in brasil – we have 40% supported the process from superavit of earlier forums in brazil – it is more difficult to call government to support forums process if they are not going to be forums in brazil ..

    Process should be supported along with event that has more chance to be support

    Raise funds largely - crowd

    Gina - emphasize – the experience accumulated by Helios team - hamouda suggested that office would move more time to Tunis - but who will support us for the rest -

    Rafaella –1/ WSF office talk for now - in a situation where commission work bad LG also and IC also - in the three place we have a structural problem – It is not just that people give so much time - we have only one person that holds us together - I don’t care where Helio lives - he can live in Maghreb - without Helio this process would have failed - Helio might go to Polynesia and fish –

    2/ if in Dhaka organization that will greet the IC they say they have the money -

    3/ intent ot call simply to participants for money support give one dollar we talk three years and do not do it - let us do it

    4/ FSMM is a good place to ask for funds

    5/ make a annual plan of events of forum events that can host IC meeting s – next year in techchna – have an annual plan – and schedule IC meeting in those places

    Michel –1/ I spoke of office in financial context it is not a judgment on Helio’s work – it is easier to fund events - so move it where the big events are keeping Helio –

    2/ another idea (- we have many people with the forum - and we could have one dollar tax on registration to support WSF office – we do not capitalize on those people - if we can gather a few 10 00 dollars

     Moema please tell about you FSMM

    Hamouda – make a difference between IC meeting and event secretariat - Brazilian organization should make more effort to support their secretariat not because is in brazil – in WSF since there is a two year rhythm - secretariat of IC should be present in local committee to involve IC this will save money for IC – the person will be paid locally by us - we look for people to work on forum organization -- Michel idea about a solidarity box where to drop one euro good idea

    We in FSMM have worked by thematic ( what you discussed with Nicolas and? I was noting this LG meting ) - we raise funds for union forum , for cultural rights - we have worked like this so far and we this support the surrounding of forum –

    We have a solidarity fund - only for marginalized or new groups emerging social movement

     We agreed in Tunis follow up meeting that each dynamics will take care of its own issue - FMAS will look for money for logistics but union forum will hav to be taken care by unions - we have focused on 8 thematic - that people should look funds for - in Egypt local group will raise funds for this - and also we in morocco raise funds for the forum

    It is difficult we have the same donors as for WSF- they cut a lot – but as Rafaela was saying donors are well disposed for Middle East - we sit with Oxfam and said WSF is our process if you want to help funds the thematic or finance the forum in general

    Here is where we are - all the follow up meetings - Tunisian take care of everything t and participants take care of their trip - in Tunisia FSMM we know that local authority will allow ot have rooms - Egypt we talked with culture minister former asocial activist that is pro forum – in Tunisia we have people in university -to have the forum in good time - that is how we look at it - about the secretariat – please think about the idea of coming six months in middle east it is a good deal to maintain seceratiat alive - Helio should be accepting travelling

    Mallory - how to mitigate the inequities between themes and organizations in raising funds -

    Hamouda : very simple : unions except Tunisian – all have been taken in charge by us - they have more money than us - since ben ali departure now it is UGTT that takes care - logistics and accommodation - but the way - all the money raised comes in a same box and is shared between all thematic – common pot

     Moema – we need to review in details – process dynamics - a person who goes in only one forum has no idea of the process – forum is not a sporadic succession of event - office – has be mainly supported by brazil - Helio has to come back to brazil at some moment - there is also the bulletin that circulate is someone else -there is monthly cost - that IC should not bear even with its own weaknesses – we know that if there not a legitimate IC we can follow - there is a continuous work - Helio and more - a meeting as this even with not many people is crucial for the sustain of the process

    We could combine possibilities and interests - in  Galiza we made a meeting that helped a lot to decide where to hold the next forum

    This type of work has to go on – we know that if WS Fis the strongest platform we have - several levels

    1/ office professional - with three people it is a miracle we can do it - 2/process dynamics how to guarantee it - 3/ event how it is connected with the IC - as we do not have a bureaucracy to make decision – once we make decision who implements it - Oded tried - Jason tried we need to decide who is in charge

    Have a discussion with Oxfam Eed and ask about funds for the process related to Maghreb Mashrek

    Hamouda - Helio discussion, on, resource and Nicolas in Paris .. where is the resource committee currently standing ? – we have discussed in LG presented in Paris

    Helio since Paris I just talked twice with Nicolas – no meeting of the recourse commission – taofik suggested that we in this meeting make a provisional document clarifying how organization of IC would contribute to IC – who? how much ? when ?

    Hamouda the situation is quite difficult - to include our friends interpreters - we have trouble to gain money to get simultaneous interpretation in the process – the donors do not want to fund this – in Morroco o we do not have Babels we need to pay them a little we will have Judith one year in advance to find money for material equipment – we start form now


    Summarizing –

     1/ support IC in WSF sao paulo

     2/ make IC office come to Maghreb several months

     3/ Michel will draft a paper in plane about the solidarity box In event

    4/ assess local donors in Dakar apart form novib and echo they found some money 5/ letter to IC people for annual contribution Helio - Alessandro was to write a letter - 6/ internet call  to fund wsf

     Moema - about 3 / it would be on the registration process not on free will – also we need to strengthen resources commission Pim Imad Nicola Candido Nandita have gone away

    Hamouda - when we were in September meeting in tunis no one wanted to get into recouce commission

     (meal break)  with a great lecture by Ali on the history of 20th century in Turkey /ottoman empire and the identities in that area


    Discussion on organization towards wsf2013 point 1

    Presenting from methodology commission the online exchange spaces and guiding principles version 2011 document

    with video projector

    Pierre – this comes from discussion inside commissions  from the groups on evaluation in paris in four languages – “have spaces for exchange between event organizers ( idea is to have several practical spaces ( that is mailing lists + small webpage already implemented here ) http://openfsm.net/projects/espacios-oe/project-home

    with practical focus in order to gather the corresponding responsible people in various events -

    of course the exchange are inspired by the document Guiding principles 


    the discussion on  this document Is opened in communication commission and will be opened to IC before dhakar  -

    this exchange space scheme is meant as permanent  and can be used by  Galiza and towards Dakar - it also foster dialogue inside an organizing committee between various people participating to such spaces in reason of their assignments 

    Hamouda - level 1 event itself not open too much level 2 communication around form (mobilization - no facilitation ) also can be used by  Galiza- level 3 resources in all type - all will send you a report next week -

     Inter commission group in FSMM

    A group of 5 people to put a working document - two days un morocco in October to present something concrete in Dhaka

     Communication based on methodology and strategy and resources - funding raised by thematic - to have a link for a dossier in three parts

    Aicha - Kamal - Midhat (Egypt) Aziz ( Bruxelles ) Hamouda

    Helio - I communication there is a practical dimension - in Dakar - content and site was on one person - we need a person in charge - in Belem there was facilitation group and each dimension had a specific group – we had daily meetings about practical communication

    Gina : even if the commission will get stimulated by the event - we can have a closer relation

    How to have evaluation tools from the beginning - to avoid catastrophes –guiding principles is a tool - reclaim subjective evaluation of people

     Moema : we know that there is a difficulty to greet others in the dynamics -Njoke and Taofik wanted to change the forum – it is a human thing – and you do not have to expect a lot from the IC process

    If I understand well the 5 people commission will prepare a document for Dhaka

    Hamouda : in each of the commission there is a dedicated person – I will follow up methodology and strategy - we have a task list - experience that we have in morocco we wll use for Tunisia or Egypt

    We are here in Diyarbakir to receive information

    Gina - there is a woman in this group ?

    Hamouda - there is Saida - and women In other committees Fatna maroc Saida tunsi

     Vision from  Galiza

    Javier - we have the same scheme - - we give ourselves two months about the dimension we can handle - and also to have a call - to have to a face to face  preparation meeting - - spaces OE are an interesting instruments

    Rafaella - I see it complicated that in the IC we do the same as the FSMM group – we never went out of the idea of open groups – am not sure we can put a mirror group to yours - a group may emerge naturally through the commission work - the people in the methodology commission can be self defined in the commission according to possibility of work

    there are some themes that we know we need to work from now public spaces solidarity economy early points that can be started early - a lot will depend on the way we see the program – if we use Dakar assembler need tools of a certain type - are we sure we need to repeat Dakar program – we could make a step forward – what we where discussing informally - we could think about new things - assemblies organized by some organization – controversy debate - if this we decide too late we cannot implement it - the only part that interested people in the previous month are interested by the program – how we make the program – we should decide in Dhaka to give a mandate - we cannot wait for the final IC – too late

     Moema - agree with Rafaela - but with revolution in arab world indignant people y Bolivia today (- we need a forum that will gather experience of the whole world - we will be in a region that has a log to bring but we need to have inputs form the rest of the world - it would be good to have decision IC in march

    From here to Dhaka IC will not be possible to mobilize we as Amed group could be a referent for you until Dhaka

    Pierre - Invite people that are on  the task list of  Galiza y FSMM to join the exchange space and invite  other people, from other forums  , prepare wsf2013 thanks to  Galiza - applied reflexion towards wsf2013 and other 2012 events – agree with  Moema - a frame that will be –“ towards 2013 through  Galiza”

    Javier – this frame may be use- we want to include 2013 In it of course  - and also a lot of co organized activities

    Gina - - risk of fragmentation - a team that share work  - what is the role of commissions now ?

    Pierre 1/- Agree with Rafaela –about  methodology and website - se Dakar - invite hamouda and Rafaela in the assembly spaces number 4-

    2/ That this Amed group sustain as interchange with FSMM  until dhaka

    3/ -we are ready to make a document with Gina Francine

    4/ –answer to Gina  : one  role of commission is  to co-facilitate the spaces of interchange  and this creates  intercommission  approach

    Helio – we need reclaim agglutination experience - the agglutination give way to assemblies - some organization know from the start they will go to an assembly – some no ,  have a space where we can start to work - start earlier

    Three Document on organization to be prepared

    Hamouda - agree with Helio - we need to propose three things - a document with Gina Francine Pierre Javier Hamouda  on methodology and strategy

    A proposal on resource – Mallory and Thais  can write on how to organize on communication

    Finance from Michel

    Converge on a document in Dhaka – presented as a proposal from Diyarbakir/Amed - presented by Francine and Gina


    On translation -

    Ali -We mentioned a few things we are moving from utopia to dystopia - we have lost quite a number of people on the way - the case we had today lead to bad feelings – get together sufficient skilled interpreter and equipment - greatest mistake repeatedly done is put interpretation after the program – has to be cheap at all costs - in Istanbul they insisted to work with a company they knew politically close to them – and one day before they had no equipment - in porto alegre 2005 with had booth with no equipment in them- same in Malmo leave that to volunteers could not do it because not trained and the system collapsed in Malmo – and also problems of money - if you do know from the inside - I suggest that one of you goe into a booth for two hours - lend an attentive ear - Francine know what we are talking about - I ask a long time ago what language will you need for tnis meeting - are you sure you won’t need Arabic or Kurdish or Turkish in MSF - and the answer was no – then it means we are going to stay alone in the booth interpreters have to be on time at 10 o clock and waited 1h30mn till it started – we had to cancel some plans we had in the evening - you said we have to consider flexibility – it is a one sided flexibility - looks flexsecurity neo liberal - I do not accept - we could have been flexible when we prepared the program – it s more self complacency than flexibility - respect for others - it cannot be taken lightly I say this openly

    Interpreters do not feel respected - what they say is not taken into account - Babels is seriously considering to get away from forums

    Joel - message of Judith - no official request was made to Babels to participate in Dhaka – nomad technology is operational - when you give time skill and effort like this you do this as solidarity - this confirms what IC is not interested - there is a genuine problem here - it threatens the process &and ne – please let us cooperate –

    Ali – there is a subjective aspects - it is a relational problem –

     Moema – this should be a conversation to create conditions for understand I think the problem is mutual - I was involved in forum organizing since 2003 – it was a great happiness when Babels was created - Babels same times is a IC member and out of IC - we opted in Nairobi and Belem not to use Babels – sometime I feel that you do not understand the dynamics of forum - many times we arrive in activity where the room is void no one is here - the reality of building a forum is more complex than what organizers’ can handle – if there is not solidarity - - without interpretation we cannot do the forum - -there is a series of difficulties ……..– relation between volutnes and professionals

    Pierre  Joel says Let us cooperate - Spaces of interchange  are place for cooperation – space 6  translation and interpretation  -  Babels at some point want to be entrusted the whole organization of interpretation   it is more relevant to make it a political collective construction inside interpretation commission where babels  people have an important role – Judith informally has done this miracle twice  outside of formal frame

    A document by francine

    Francine - if we had regular working hours – it would help – francine propose to make a document for IC Dhaka and se if it acceptable

    Ali -use the current case - be flexible in the planning – envisage the possible language where the meeting is taking place - have two people in the booth - respect time we give present to those that do not come on time – not an hour and a half !

    Joel – perhaps it not fair to say that this I communication - Judith is wondering what is happening for Dhaka - you can issue a call and issue tick for a first batch of people - we are 5 people no boss but if we ask the good questions we solve

     Moema - we were not able to speak with amit who was supposed to come for Dhaka -we have no information - the way IC works is sometimes too chaotic - this is the reality we have - we do not know if they have money for solidarity fund - not just the interpreters -

    Ali - then share we us the negative information! -– stay in contact simply by sending a mail at this mails -  Babels @ Babels .org

    Joel - the bottom line is we are loosing interpreters – it does not matter whose fault is it - we are loosing them - the people really involved in the process believes less and less - the number of response we get is just going down and down

    Hamouda – we already started discussion with Judith for next april - I was the interface in Dakar - I know how it went on both sides

    Ali - maybe it would be good to remember what is Babels project - make interpretation available for any one – it is a society project - forum should own this project and not see us as a service provider   to put some honey in all this conversation  - in big professional conference with last minute change that is the same chaos as in the forum

    Hamouda - thanks and good travel to  home

    Documents about Kurdish situation

    Erdal - sorry I was absent - yesterday Helio asked about some information about the forum we have 10min de forum video-

    Also thare are two Document about Kurdish situation  - and document call for solidarity

    This paper was written by Ocalan in an island since 2011 – Turkish state and EU have this letter in their hands - we can send a version on the bulletin

    This other paper is for circulation in IC and signatures by organizations

    Video of MSF - with image from the opening march - the workshop time and the march of women